Murder By The Book - Ender's Game

I would also like to point out that Granola and Sotek are gunning for Eberron now as well. Continuing with their suspicious pattern.

The Merchant of Votals

Nova - 2 (icanhasdonut, Palamedes)
Slorange - 1 (Truegreen)
Solaris - 1 (Nova)
eberron - 2 (Sotek, Granolaman)
Truegreen - 1 (eberron)
Akumu - 1 (Seedy)

A reminder: if you're voting for someone, don't just bold their name! I'm likely to miss it as I scan through the posts, and even if I notice I'll probably err on the side of caution and not count it.

With 20 players alive and present, it takes 11 to lynch and six to soft lynch.
Deadline is Tuesday, April 1 at 11:59 PM.

Hear that Sotek? Your scrutiny of my every move and being the only one who wants me dead enough to vote me means we must be in cahoots. Let's go make blood pacts in the bathroom or something.

Hear that Sotek? Your scrutiny of my every move and being the only one who wants me dead enough to vote me means we must be in cahoots. Let's go make blood pacts in the bathroom or something.

...That was an...

interesting response

/scribbling furiously on notepad

Hmm...

I have to say that I don't really feel too comfortable with Schazer right now. So far she's been very mechanics-focused and extremely helpful towards Truegreen in particular. It's not like Truegreen is the only new one here, so why all the advice? I'm tempted to say they're aligned, but if they were mafia, they would probably just take it to daychat. It also really feels like other people are jumping in to help Truegreen as well. So... Not sure what to think here at all, and I don't want to assume too much.

Still really annoyed by people pushing very hard for an eberron lynch, but I will admit he does look kind of scummy right now, from kind of flip-flopping between convictions. My vibe is telling me that he's town, trying his best to cover for his early mistakes. I feel like everyone pushing for eberron is trying too hard to have a lynch today, though whether it's a mislynch or an information lynch probably depends on the person voting. Honestly, eberron is the ULTRA PRIME #1 info lynch, because of the ridiculous number of people attacking or supporting him, so even then, there's not much to go on, at least until Eberron flips, if he does get lynched/killed.

Complexity does not usually imply Veracity. It is in fact the complexity of Slorange's claim that I have issue with.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion re: my too-short post. I meant that it's complex and yet believable, meaning that if Slorange was scum and making that up, it would take a hell of a lot of (unnecessary) skill to fabricate such a complicated situation, instead of simply lying based on Occam's Razor (where the simplest explanation is usually the correct one). Thus, Slorange had no real reason to make up such a complicated situation, were he scum.

Granola's response, above, was kind of odd as well. Basically it seemed much too vehement a reply against a casual suggestion that you guys may be together. And yeah, the fact that Sotek jumped from you to Eberron, then you started voting Eberron, seems more than just a coincidence.

And I honestly wouldn't count out the option that Sotek was hyperbussing you D1 when it was the least likely to actually go through, so it would seem like the two of you aren't aligned. His "case" on you was kind of really weak after all, having happened during RVS based on one post, then like 3 or 4 posts after that continuing to point him out then complaining about not enough people voting him. I'm still trying to understand WHY he voted Granola in the first place, but it's laden with RPing. (see this is why you don't RP in mafia games) It appears to be based on the ethics of no-lynching? Either way, Granola's post didn't look too scummy, or at least not scummy enough to warrant a day-long tunneling, ignoring the current circumstances up until today.

I am going to vote: Sotek for being the most likely scum out of the pair.

EBWOP: Just wanted to clear up something. When I referred to Granola's post in the last few sentences, I was referring to his very early post on D1, AKA apparently the main reason Sotek voted for Granola. Sorry for the confusion.

Hmm. While I'm still very suspicious of Slorange it seems I won't have much support, at least not today. From my own exploration of the previous posts it is my opinion that Sotek and Granolaman are both quite liable to be scum, while Slorange is more of an untrustworthy anomaly. While I think Garuru may be trying to draw attention from Eberron I believe Granola and Sotek are more scummy. Which is why...

unvote

Vote: Sotek

Akumu, you've been answering some of my points while not answering others. The main one you're ignoring is the point of my argument for your lynch: you've been very passive after putting your vote on eberron yesterday. You are not behaving like someone who genuinely wants to get people they think are scum lynched.

After voting eberron, you passively bemoan people leaving the bandwagon but make no effort to actually call anyone out for doing so. You make no effort to contradict anyone's argument as to why eberron should not be lynched. You make no effort to analyze anything new eberron has done as further fuel for the lynch. Instead you focus on people who haven't posted yet.

After I make these points, you answer with this:

SpoilerShow

I remain firm in my belief that lynching someone now, even at random, is better for the innocent authors than not lynching. I was focused on the inactive participants because it seemed unlikely to get enough people to agree to a lynch on any one of the active participants, while I didn't think anyone would disagree that someone who didn't contribute for four days would be a big loss to the game.

I guess now that everybody has posted, that's out the window though!

I've stayed on eberron because, as I think I've said enough times by now, I am going to vote to lynch whomever I find most suspicious today, even if that level of suspicion is very low. Nothing anyone has done since I voted eberron has struck me as more suspicious than the agree-happy flip-flopping. Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention; I'd love to have more suspicious things pointed out. Is getting on a wagon in and of itself suspicious? After all, in order to lynch anyone, including Undercover agents, there has to be enough people voting that way. After the flip we can look at such things.

The only wagon that strikes me as innately suspicious is the one for No Lynch, as that action can only benefit Undercover. Am I beating a dead horse here, apologies to Susan? I guess so, but no-one's told me why I'm wrong about it so I can only keep believing I'm right.

You'll notice that while this DOES answer my question of why you've stayed on eberron, it does NOT answer my line of questioning as to why you've done nothing else to further the lynch. Your answer to why you instead choose to make vague comments about people you're not even voting for is very scummy (as I mention in my reply). You also say that you think the no lynch wagon is scummy, but AGAIN, leave it only as passive commentary instead of having opinions or analyses on individuals.

Anyways, here's what I say next, and your reply:

SpoilerShow

You do realize that this translates to "I thought it would be too hard to get this person lynched, so instead I figured that lynching a non-active player would be easy and noncontroversial." That's...a really scummy thought process, you know? Also, random lynches are not better than no lynches. The whole POINT of "always lynching" is for the information. Picking someone at random and piling on would preclude that. As would piling on someone who hadn't even talked.
Not that I can really say you were trying too hard get those players lynched, since you just made a few vague posts and never voted for any of them. You've just passively stayed on eberron. I understand some of your arguments, but I don't feel you've satisfactorily answered your inaction...other than to say that you felt it would be 'too hard' to even try to push a lynch.

No, the point is killing scum, and the fact that with an odd number of living players lynching wrong has the same effect on number of mislynches as not lynching at all.

You pick ONE point out of the whole thing to reply to. It was before a deadline, but now that I've asked you to actually reply you make the frankly ridiculous claim that you already have.
Akumu, why do you openly profess your intent to pursue noncontroversial lynches? Why are most of your posts vague thoughts on noncontroversially scummy things being scummy with no real action behind them? Why haven't you said much about eberron today, since you apparently wanted them dead? What changed? What do you think of the people defending them? What do you think of me, with my no lynching and defending the person you want dead and voting for you?
You're playing at being active while trying as hard as possible not to make too many waves. You have opinions on courses of action but next to none on actual players.
Akumu, who do you want dead?

Yeah I would be interested to know why Sotes is so quiet and why Granola is talking to him but I neeeed to hear from Sol

Vote: bigro

Waste of a playerslot so far.

Hey, no editing posts. If you make a typo or incorrectly bold, you have to live with it.

You shouldn't have to be directly asked anything to participate in the game. Be constructive, or you might as well not be playing.

Wow rude. It's not very nice to call people wastes as a wise old badger once told me.
--

OK so it seems the only thing that I have directly been asked (post#230) is why I chose to vote for Nova in post #187 was because it was absolutely hilarious. They said in #186 that they didn't want a no lynch so I thought cheekily They don't want a no lynch so I'll give them a lynch.

Aren't I just terrible.

Okay, but what is your opinion on the game so far. That is what Slorange is trying to get at. Comments? Complaints? Who do you think is in the mafia? Who do you think is in the town?

Because, (and this goes out to all of you lurkers) this is the kind of game where we must analyze everybody in the game, and kind of mentally sort them into town or mafia, or consider who is aligned, or something (the process is nowhere near as simple as that). Basically, if you choose to say nothing, we must now contend with having an empty and therefore totally unpredictable slot.

(not directed at bigro anymore. now that he's said something.)

Um, I'm not trying to force you all to play this game or get out, or anything. Take your time, really.

A janitoring is typically an effect tied to a kill; that aside, the mafia presumably did not know I could redirect kills (which are the only things I could redirect, yes). If I was targeted for a kill but I made a lightningrod of cyber, then cyber would die and I would not, barring a roleblock or other unforeseen interaction. Cyber's body was hidden because whoever died as a result of the kill would have been hidden, regardless of who it originally targeted.

Because Cyber was either:

-a role known as a Commuter, which avoids the first kill on them by temporarily "vanishing" from the game, or
- ended up being the target of a janitor kill (the Janitor visits the target like a regular mafia kill; provided the Janitor is not roleblocked and the target was not protected on the night of targeting by a Doctor/Bulletproof Vest/other mechanic, the target dies. The Janitor has a secondary ability; if they successfully make the night kill and activate this ability, the victim will "vanish" in the daystart post instead of revealing their identity.)

Slorange "knows" that it was a Janitor because the alternative role mechanic you could expect from this course of events (the Commuter) is a rarely-seen role, and Seedy also put forth decent scumteam logic for perfoming a N1 Janitoring.

Bigro I can tell you're offended because Slorange voted you, but if you're town and want to help us lynch scum he's not the only valid target (and IMO, he's hardly a valid target in the first place).

Heck, if you're town (and this goes out to the other newbies who are being quiet), just have a go! Read things, and pick one thing someone said that sounded weird, and call them out on it! Don't assume though that anyone who points at you specifically must be scum, though, because lurkiness is unhelpful for town and you deserve to be called out for it.

On the whole, this game's got less veteran vitriol than I've seen in other games, so if you think me or anyone else who seems to know what they're talking about is suspicious, call us out on it!

"Assume makes an ass of you and me."
-Arthur C. Clarke.

Nova is giving me a weird vibe, if a vibe is what is being given. I suppose I'll vote for them.

Lynch Nova.

Yeah I would be interested to know why Sotes is so quiet and why Granola is talking to him but I neeeed to hear from Sol

I am so quiet because I signed up for this game while in a lull, then when it came around to finally starting, so did two other games, as well as getting hammered with a deadline at work *and* a deadline for my PhD thesis.

This game, with no posted deadline that I can see, on a forum I don't typically frequent, full of people who aren't bothering to participate by voting, has fallen way behind everything else.

I'm very sorry about that, but ... I'm stuck. I can't do any of my normal analysis because there's been what, exactly one wagon with more than four people on it? And that didn't even turn into a lynch.

I don't know most of the people in this game, so I can't tell if anyone's being weird, either.

There hasn't even been enough activity for me to try to jumpstart activity with a question time.

It's pretty rude to just straight up tell someone they shouldn't be playing and are a waste

That's the opposite of what I said. You were a waste because you WEREN'T playing. The fact that you're in here responding to things goes a long way towards making that not be the case, but you still need to say things that aren't entirely reactive.

And no, I don't know for 100% fact that Cyber was janitored and that the janitoring worked exactly the way it does in the vast majority of cases. There are other possibilities including the commuter, an even rarer role like the false martyr that allows a player to leave the game of their own free will and come back later, or even some role that auto-janitors ANY deaths as long as they're alive/active/choose to/whatever. But given the information we have, this looks like far and away the most likely scenario to the extent that I'm comfortable making an ass out of umptions for the moment. If we bog ourselves down giving equal credence to every possibility, we'll never get anything done.

For now there's no point in continuing to vote bigro, but I hope he starts putting down some of his opinions beyond the valid but unhelpful "Slorange is a Roode Doode" soon. Instead, I will vote: icanhasdonut for basically the same reason. Usually I'm leery of lurker-lynches since they're a pretty safe one for scum to start or get on (and scum are less likely to be idle than town), but with the dearth of information we have right now, it's a decent place to start and hopefully will result in more active players instead of just killing the ones that are inactive.

This game, with no posted deadline that I can see, on a forum I don't typically frequent, full of people who aren't bothering to participate by voting, has fallen way behind everything else.

I feel like I should note that there is a deadline; Day 2 is ending no later than the end of Tuesday (GMT -7)

Slorange I have been pretty active so i'm really not sure what you're saying about lurker lynches?

Also Slorange what are your thoughts re:Novawatts?

Akumu, you've been answering some of my points while not answering others. The main one you're ignoring is the point of my argument for your lynch: you've been very passive after putting your vote on eberron yesterday. You are not behaving like someone who genuinely wants to get people they think are scum lynched.

After voting eberron, you passively bemoan people leaving the bandwagon but make no effort to actually call anyone out for doing so. You make no effort to contradict anyone's argument as to why eberron should not be lynched. You make no effort to analyze anything new eberron has done as further fuel for the lynch. Instead you focus on people who haven't posted yet.

After I make these points, you answer with this:

SpoilerShow

I remain firm in my belief that lynching someone now, even at random, is better for the innocent authors than not lynching. I was focused on the inactive participants because it seemed unlikely to get enough people to agree to a lynch on any one of the active participants, while I didn't think anyone would disagree that someone who didn't contribute for four days would be a big loss to the game.

I guess now that everybody has posted, that's out the window though!

I've stayed on eberron because, as I think I've said enough times by now, I am going to vote to lynch whomever I find most suspicious today, even if that level of suspicion is very low. Nothing anyone has done since I voted eberron has struck me as more suspicious than the agree-happy flip-flopping. Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention; I'd love to have more suspicious things pointed out. Is getting on a wagon in and of itself suspicious? After all, in order to lynch anyone, including Undercover agents, there has to be enough people voting that way. After the flip we can look at such things.

The only wagon that strikes me as innately suspicious is the one for No Lynch, as that action can only benefit Undercover. Am I beating a dead horse here, apologies to Susan? I guess so, but no-one's told me why I'm wrong about it so I can only keep believing I'm right.

You'll notice that while this DOES answer my question of why you've stayed on eberron, it does NOT answer my line of questioning as to why you've done nothing else to further the lynch. Your answer to why you instead choose to make vague comments about people you're not even voting for is very scummy (as I mention in my reply). You also say that you think the no lynch wagon is scummy, but AGAIN, leave it only as passive commentary instead of having opinions or analyses on individuals.

Anyways, here's what I say next, and your reply:

SpoilerShow

You do realize that this translates to "I thought it would be too hard to get this person lynched, so instead I figured that lynching a non-active player would be easy and noncontroversial." That's...a really scummy thought process, you know? Also, random lynches are not better than no lynches. The whole POINT of "always lynching" is for the information. Picking someone at random and piling on would preclude that. As would piling on someone who hadn't even talked.
Not that I can really say you were trying too hard get those players lynched, since you just made a few vague posts and never voted for any of them. You've just passively stayed on eberron. I understand some of your arguments, but I don't feel you've satisfactorily answered your inaction...other than to say that you felt it would be 'too hard' to even try to push a lynch.

No, the point is killing scum, and the fact that with an odd number of living players lynching wrong has the same effect on number of mislynches as not lynching at all.

You pick ONE point out of the whole thing to reply to. It was before a deadline, but now that I've asked you to actually reply you make the frankly ridiculous claim that you already have.
Akumu, why do you openly profess your intent to pursue noncontroversial lynches? Why are most of your posts vague thoughts on noncontroversially scummy things being scummy with no real action behind them? Why haven't you said much about eberron today, since you apparently wanted them dead? What changed? What do you think of the people defending them? What do you think of me, with my no lynching and defending the person you want dead and voting for you?
You're playing at being active while trying as hard as possible not to make too many waves. You have opinions on courses of action but next to none on actual players.
Akumu, who do you want dead?

In general, I am going to make my arguments, and people are going to either agree with them or not. I don't feel like spending the time to say the same thing over and over again, which is why I find it particularly annoying to be asked questions where the best answer is just to quote things I've previously written.

I felt, for the reasons expounded upon, that the best course of action was to lynch someone on day one. I felt, for the reasons expounded upon, that eberron was the most suspicious person on day one. Some people agreed with me, some people didn't, and they acted accordingly. It's not day one anymore, which is why I haven't been pushing to lynch anyone in particular today! The standard of evidence has, in my reckoning, gone way up.

I don't like that you're focusing on me, because you seem to be judging me by your standards of play, instead of any sort of analysis dealing with whether or not I am scum. Conversely, I'm not going to turn around and vote for you based on your style of play.

Twelfth Votals

Nova - 3 (icanhasdonut, Palamedes, Dalmationer)
Solaris - 1 (Nova)
eberron - 2 (Sotek, Granolaman)
Truegreen - 1 (eberron)
Akumu - 1 (Seedy)
Sotek - 2 (Garuru, Truegreen)
icanhasdonut - 1 (Slorange)

With 20 players alive and present, it takes 11 to lynch and six to soft lynch.
Deadline is Tuesday, April 1 at 11:59 PM.

Hmm, you're right icanhasdonut. I thought you hadn't posted today, but you'd actually only posted early on. Rather unsubstantively. I'll rethink this in a bit.

Usually I'm leery of lurker-lynches since they're a pretty safe one for scum to start or get on (and scum are less likely to be idle than town), but with the dearth of information we have right now, it's a decent place to start and hopefully will result in more active players instead of just killing the ones that are inactive.

Hey you! Hold the fuck up!

The only reason we have a "dearth of information" is because you pushed crazy hard for a no lynch yesterday, then you directed all the kills last night onto someone who was barely even here! Now multiple people on both sides of the argument agree that eberron would be a fantastic info lynch given the way people have stacked up here, but you want to pursue a "lurker lynch" on yet another person who's nowhere near the middle of things?!

Lynch: Slorange

I'll bet I nailed it on the head with your power being a scum one.

Bonus points: bigro brought up the fact that janitoring usually isn't tied directly to the kill; it's an additional power usually used to augment a kill but can be technically targeted anywhere. You said your power only moved the kills. It's possible that the scum janitoring was a specialty kill, or para/fogel decided to move the janitoring anyways, but I feel it's much more likely that the janitoring was just an extra booster to your one-shot killrod.