Murder By The Book - Ender's Game

Ok so I'm rocking what is tentatively a sleep-deprivation-induced mild headache and I'm superglad I don't have car school this evening. I got halfway through another brainstorm on what Cyber's reveal means for Slorange's claim before something short-circuited.

Either way I think it makes Slorange less clear than I assumed before, but still not worth lynching.

I will think about other shit once I've slept, re-read, gotten lesson plans done et al. In the interim can I just double-check: Mirdini are you going to die on us soon or are you just claiming you were targeted by the night kill and it's situation normal otherwise?

I'm going to keel over from internal bleeding at the end of the day.

S'why Slorange is basically clear in my eyes, explains why I actually lived through night one and then suddenly night two lurker!dini is terminated with extreme prejudice (hint it was Undercover going OH WHAT WHY ISN'T DINI DEAD SHOOT AGAIN

a ha ha ha can't kill me that easily I'm afraid

...

just slightly less easily)

Except they would know why lirker!dini wasn't dead and why would they waste their second nightkill on you just because you're Mirdini. Smells more like a super polite scumteam, another form of town protection through redirection, or a scumteam actively working to prevent any useful info from getting out as long as possible. All three point to a townleader(s?) are scum scenario.

Unless it's an elaborate setup I guess. Bleh. No time to look it over today (I'll try tomorrow).

Donut what is the Watts/eberron link.
Schazer/Slorange/Solaris I again ask if you would care to do things besides defend Slorange and vote lurkers.
Seriously what is it with the S people here.
The scumteam can't be Schazer/Slorange/Solaris/seedy/Sotek, right?

I'm not sure what you'd have me do here, Nova, I'm really not. If I defend myself it's because I'm scum and worried about being lynched; if I don't address points against me, it's because I'm glossing over legitimate arguments because I'm scum and want people to forget them. Yr tunnlin dude

I told you what to do. Scumhunt. If you want me to get off you, do something that benefits the town instead of talking about yourself or your claim all day.

nova i really dont think that scum would lie about this whole deal, it is a bit of an absurd situation

I don't either. But I also don't think town would bother. It's a pointless distraction either way, so the claim itself is a nulltell to me; I'm arguing mostly based on his play, which is scummy as shit.

I'm arguing mostly based on his play, which is scummy as shit.

can we tone down the rhetoric a bit I hate to go maximum Dakota Weber but this sort of thing is the reason why a lot of people don't want to post/play mafia in general

this isn't directed solely at Nova either

(Nova you do kinda stick out though considering Schaz already had to bop you for shoutiness yesterday)

Donut what is the Watts/eberron link.

their interactions d1. dead!granola has said him and cyber had no daychat. this implies scumteam didn't. watts's interactions w eberron lean towards s ummate warning scummate.

also with slorange i don't think they're scum mainly because they would've paired w nola and partially because cyber's body

speaking of that slorange what happened re cybers body.

Cyber's body was found in the library.

that's just flavorwise

can we tone down the rhetoric a bit I hate to go maximum Dakota Weber but this sort of thing is the reason why a lot of people don't want to post/play mafia in general

this isn't directed solely at Nova either

(Nova you do kinda stick out though considering Schaz already had to bop you for shoutiness yesterday)

I'm not even sure what I'm doing at this point like...

I'm just talking???

Yesterday I was absolutely being a smartass but that's because I felt like he was getting hostile with me for no reason

Now I'm actually just saying words I have little to no emotional commitment to aside from the baseline required to make a case against somebody

If y'all aren't talking just to me then please don't single me out because I don't appreciate it

partially because cyber's body

How does that absolve him? All it does is call into question whether Cyber really was hit by a janitor, since in my experience a janitor's victim doesn't just pop up the next day.

So uh I've been advised some people may be put off by my foul mouth

so I'm gonna try to be G-rated Nova for a bit :x Sry if anyone was discouraged from postin'

yo pala you gunna back that up with a vote or what

anyway so this is the working reality as per theory of mirdini
mirdini gets shot n1, slorange redirects to cyber
dini gets shot again n2, lives because of "get nk'd and live the next dayphase role"

the janitor thing could either be a result of sloranges thing that he didnt know about (doubtful), some other party interfering, or maybe its how janitoring is not a one shot??? assuming that scum can janitor more than once (if they are the source of cybers poof then blowing a one shot on night one would be a bit.... (unless the person with the janitor got under fire on day one...) but if they can use it more than once then theyd probably have some sort of limit to it??????)

i guess that sort of makes sense

speaking of that slorange what happened re cybers body.

I don't know any more than you do. It suggests to me either an atypical janitor power or an anti-janitor power that was added for balance, but that's really just a wild guess in the dark and not super worth discussing because we don't have any way of knowing anything about it so we'll just talk in circles about hypothetical mechanics and not accomplish anything.

Schazer/Slorange/Solaris I again ask if you would care to do things besides defend Slorange and vote lurkers.

Truegreen ain't a lurker, buddy. To re-irritate, my vote is based on:

• Of all the people who worked towards a lynch on me, Truegreen's logic was the most blatantly flawed and misleading
  
• He repeatedly tried to misinterpret or change my arguments in such a way as to make them sound scummier
  
• His play in general was at best unhelpful to town (finalizing his vote early, jumping off my wagon when it looked hopeless then immediately coming back on when other votes came in, avoiding explaining himself by claiming he already had, etc etc) and at worst actively detrimental
  

None of which is "I dun like him cuz he vote me" nor at all related to my claim or back-and-forth with Granola. I will admit, I had hoped Granola was going to flip scum-that-tried-to-save-himself-with-a-third-party-claim (even though that was unlikely given the third party claim was bodystacker), and the guarantee of non-coalignment between him and Truegreen we have now makes me a little less certain Truegreen's scum, but he still sticks out the most to me.

Solaris... I dunno, Mirdini's points seem pretty sound (especially if we assume I'm wrong about Truegreen), but it also seems like he's making some pretty big leaps. To make sure I've got this correct, he's claiming dayend-bulletproof and was targeted for a kill last night; he believes he was targeted on night one as well, and killed night two because the mafia's kill was redirected and they really wanted him dead. In his mind, this clears me because of the hand I had in ensuring the mafia's kill didn't hit him (which I wouldn't have done as mafia). He will die at the end of today and wants to get his suspicions and what info he has out before he does so we can have suspicions from a Certified Townie™ after his flip.

What I'm not getting is why he assumes he would have been targeted night one, why he's sure that means they'd have retargeted him night two (because why would the mafia so want him dead if they don't know anything about him slash if his only power is a bulletproof), why he's taking my claim at face value, or why he's suspicious neither of Watts not Truegreen (not because I'm sure that's wrong, just because I'm not sure why that's the case). What's the deal, yo?

Sure Solaris. I'm still waiting.

Oh yeah, thr reason I didn't vote and still am kind of eh about it is because I'm busy and shouldn't even be making this post, much less figure out my feelings regarding at least one of Slorange/Schazer being scum vs. them being town and scum is hiding in plain sight by just going along with them against townies that don't (so Solaris and Gnauga).

Slorange I don't know but those first two reasons do sound like 'he's suspicious of me reasons' (at face value, at least).

The third sounds like a lot of either newbie mistakes or, in the case of things like 'jumping off my wagon when it looked hopeless then immediately coming back on when other votes came in' reasonable play (why waste a vote when it's clear all of your efforts are for naught and you have other suspicions).

Regardless of any of that, at no point in the game have you given an opinion on anyone or anything game-related unless you were asked (multiple times) or if it was about someone who voted you or said you were suspicious (all of whom you dubbed suspicious themselves, of course). It kind of makes me leery of the complaints about how people voting you are being the unhelpful and misleading ones.

Sooo

By your logic any vote against someone who is voting you is going to be a kneejerk reciprocal vote? If someone's voting for anyone for distorted or illogical reasons, that's a good reason to be suspicious of them, regardless of if the person they're voting for is you. At least Nova's attempting to make a case against me that's logically sound rather than (possibly-deliberately) misleading; the same can't be said of anyone else who was on my protowagon (and couldn't be said of him yesterday), so yeah, I am suspicious of people involved in a push against me. It was poor-to-the-point-of-scummy play, as I – and other people! – have pointed out.

But hey, I guess you can selectively ignore whatever you want if that's what you're into. You're beating a pulped horse. Lynch me, or lynch Schazer, or lynch Gnauga; that'll clear up a lot of things you're too busy to figure out. Or instead, you could touch on literally anything else, and it would be a refreshing and possibly-elucidating change of pace. For all that you keep harping on my being too reticent to put forward significant opinions, I at least have expounded on who I'm suspicious of and why, and who I am not suspicious of and why; why is that more salient than the large group of people who have said almost nothing about their thoughts or haven't given the reasoning behind them? Not just the lurkers, but Solaris and Mirdini and Gnauga and Garuru? For all that people keep harping on me for monopolizing the discussion about myself, those same people sure seem to come back to the same points that could be applied to a lot of other people.

Alright, let's see if I can understand what is going on here.

1. Mirdini claims they were the target last night and will die by the end of the day. (I am inclined to believe this for the sake of today as it is verifiable by the end)

2. Cyber has mysteriously disappeared it might be a good idea to analyze potential powers that can do this. Could he have 'vanished' himself yesterday and been killed en route back? Could his power have simply delayed the discovery of his body? Could it be someone else using their power to 'vanish' him for a day?

3. Granolaman was telling the truth about his ability and the nature of his partner.

Here are some things I would like to address.

1. Slorange and myself have argued so much that our arguments are becoming convoluted and frustrating and other people have noticed the apparent rivalry.

2. It has been commented that my posts have been a bit difficult to read at times. I admit I can sometimes change gears in the middle of an argument and many things I have posted are stream of consciousness and difficult to parse. I will try to be more straightforward from now on.

3. I have realized that I have focused so much on the conflict with Slorange that I have an incomplete picture of most other players. Right now I only have opinions on a few which I will elucidate further later. I will make no vote at the start of this day as I am going to try to get more familiar with other characters before I make any definite choices.

My current observations.

Scum Reads
Slorange: Seems like scum to me, I will post an updated and clarified version of my grievances in the near future as I pity anyone trying to go back and read through that mess of a conversation.

Schazer: Mostly because Schazer/Slorange seems to be a team. Also because Schazer gummed up much of the second day with mechanics arguments and attempts to polarize players based on which risks they preferred. I suppose the Slorange defenses could be due to residual goodwill, Slorange seems well liked on this board, but I cannot rely on that being the only reason, especially in a game like this.

Chowka[/u:] Mostly a feeling, seems very chaotic in his choices. Though, his playstyle on many other games on this board seems to support his current activity. My suspicion of [u]Chowka right now is largely gut feeling so go examine his previous posts yourself and make your own opinion.

Eberron: Seems very wishy washy, also, Slorange pushed heavily for No Lynch when Eberron was in danger.

Most everyone else is kind of undecided. Again, I will review previous posts as I go and make a Lynch vote when I am ready.

I can make no opinions on today as I have just read through it quickly before making this post. I was gone over the weekend and did not have access to my computer for that time.

Or instead, you could touch on literally anything else, and it would be a refreshing and possibly-elucidating change of pace.

...snrk

NOPE NOT GONNA BE A SMARTASS

Oh frick I cussed fingfjang

dingle dangle

What I'm not getting is why he assumes he would have been targeted night one, why he's sure that means they'd have retargeted him night two (because why would the mafia so want him dead if they don't know anything about him slash if his only power is a bulletproof), why he's taking my claim at face value, or why he's suspicious neither of Watts not Truegreen (not because I'm sure that's wrong, just because I'm not sure why that's the case). What's the deal, yo?

Conveniently, the explanations to these questions are all pretty related!

I assume I was targeted night one for two reasons:

1. As some people noted yesterday cyber did not really make sense as a night kill target - he'd barely posted on day one (a total of 4 posts in this thread), and isn't particularly known as someone scum would want to murder otherwise. The only theory that holds up with cyber being intentionally shot is Schazer's 'scum shot a lurker to do the game a favor' which is not one I'm convinced by, see 2.
   
   
2. Despite my posting what, 3 times through the first two days I'm killed N2. This doesn't hold up with the 'scum want to keep the game fun' theory because even without my posting day 2 I'd still done more than some other players. It also doesn't make sense from a pure 'shoot the most in-this-game threatening people' angle either since well my absence. Which leaves the 'shoot dini he's dangerous' meta-reasoning that points heavily towards the mafia trying to off me N1 as well.

I'm taking your claim at face value both because Occam's razor suggests you're legit (eliminating the 'he scum-shot cyber in order to claim it and thus convince people he wasn't mafia because why would mafia shoot cyber etc. etc. etc.') and because since no-one else has stepped up to claim responsibility for cyber's death (janitored death, no less) your claim defaults to being correct.

Note that my opinion on your claim changed drastically once I'd been shot last night - before I was quite convinced that you were scum, mostly because so many of your posts were dealing with yourself n' your claim which seemed to me a wonderful distraction for the town to hare after while you got to have a plausible claim to run with for the rest of a game - a pretty well-executed gambit if so. (This gambit is not really compatible with the aforementioned 'kill Mirdini' directive).

Which is partially why I think Truegreen and Nova's focus on lynching you isn't scummy but simply misguided town - you looked pretty mafia (or at the very least third party) to me after my reread of yesterday too. The other part of it there is that they were (are) way too committed to your lynch - I don't think they would've gone quite as hard after you as scum, particularly on Day Two when if you're actually town they'd catch a ton of flak for pushing a lynch that hard.

Anyway.


While I'd love to see where this Solaris lynch goes I am sadly strapped for posting time so I might as well go with a lynch I feel somewhat better on (though Solaris is currently still a coinflip alignment-wise for me)

No, I think scum are sitting off in a more ambivalent quarter where they can try to commit to as few reads as possible while the game still settles in.

I'm tempted to say they're aligned, but if they were mafia, they would probably just take it to daychat. It also really feels like other people are jumping in to help Truegreen as well. So... Not sure what to think here at all, and I don't want to assume too much.

I will admit [Eberron] does look kind of scummy right now, from kind of flip-flopping between convictions. My vibe is telling me that he's town, trying his best to cover for his early mistakes. I feel like everyone pushing for eberron is trying too hard to have a lynch today, though whether it's a mislynch or an information lynch probably depends on the person voting. Honestly, eberron is the ULTRA PRIME #1 info lynch, because of the ridiculous number of people attacking or supporting him, so even then, there's not much to go on, at least until Eberron flips, if he does get lynched/killed.

Vote: Garuru

(I can dig up more waffling but this post is long enough as is)

basically the way I see this is either watts/eberron or slorange/schazer scumteam sets and in all honesty I do like slorange better than you/eberron
vote nova

also willing to lynch donut for this

So in light of what Dini has said I actually wanna hear more from Schaz no matter what Slorange flips

She seems like somebody that would find him a threat

Not lookin' good for the schwid

Thou Shalt Not Commit Votals

bigro - 1 (Solaris)
Slorange - 1 (Nova)
Nova - 1 (icanhasdonuts)
Truegreen - 1 (Slorange)
Mirdini - 1 (Schazer)
Solaris - 1 (Sotek)
Garuru - 1 (Mirdini)

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 to lynch and five to soft-lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 12 at 11:59 PM Mountain Time.

Pointing out that you won't make the joke is exactly the same as making the joke, Samuel Alito

I'm more comfortable with a Garu lynch than a Solaris one since at least the latter has said enough that we'll have something to look back on as the game progresses and form opinions about. I still feel like I wouldn't make the same assumptions you would in your position, but you also don't really have time to waffle given the whole going-to-die thing. Makes sense, and you're at least mostly right even if the details may or may not be off. I'd buy it.

Actually, uh... I'm doing a reread right now so I can add more things that don't relate to anything I was involved in yesterday and this one stuck out at me:

cyber, kumu, maybe pala and nova and nola are all scumspecty to me rn i forgot to say

Maybe I'm more okay with a Solaris lynch than I thought. Cyber we know is not-mafia, Akumu I suspect is not-mafia, and despite being irritated with the consistent suspicion on me for reasons I'd consider unwise or misleading (still looking at you Amosgreen) I'm becoming less and less actually suspicious of Palamedes and Nova as the day goes on, since many of the reasons they and Mirdini put forward for suspecting me are comparatively reasonable and logical coming from someone with no knowledge of my identity (ie town or third parties) (in before this is me losing my conviction because I'm scum and don't want to push an unpopular lynch). If I assume that all of those people are town, then Solaris's soft suggestion (without backing beyond Nova voted based on an OMGUS) that they all be looked at is pretty believable as scum nudging town towards town. Coupled with the fact that he was on the No Lynch train, which from a purely gameplay perspective is generally... not great, the more I read back the less I like him. Too much empty mechanics speculation, too. Also holy wow Schazer really does a lot of amiable agreeing witxh me, more than I remember plus also mechanicsmusing. And meta-argument. Hmm.

Friggin' a, the more I re-reread the less I like most of my suspicions. I mean, I still want to bop anyone who said I "pushed hard" for a no lynch when my entire contribution there was two (or three, I forget) posts saying why I vote no lynch on day one on principle and at no point encouraging other people to join me, but most of the rest of what I've been running on has been splash suspicion from Granola and conflating arguments. Also I just found this, which strikes me as weird:

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Granola's response, above, was kind of odd as well. Basically it seemed much too vehement a reply against a casual suggestion that you guys may be together. And yeah, the fact that Sotek jumped from you to Eberron, then you started voting Eberron, seems more than just a coincidence.

And I honestly wouldn't count out the option that Sotek was hyperbussing you D1 when it was the least likely to actually go through, so it would seem like the two of you aren't aligned. His "case" on you was kind of really weak after all, having happened during RVS based on one post, then like 3 or 4 posts after that continuing to point him out then complaining about not enough people voting him. I'm still trying to understand WHY he voted Granola in the first place, but it's laden with RPing. (see this is why you don't RP in mafia games) It appears to be based on the ethics of no-lynching? Either way, Granola's post didn't look too scummy, or at least not scummy enough to warrant a day-long tunneling, ignoring the current circumstances up until today.

I am going to vote: Sotek for being the most likely scum out of the pair.

Annnnd this:

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Still really annoyed by people pushing very hard for an eberron lynch, but I will admit he does look kind of scummy right now, from kind of flip-flopping between convictions. My vibe is telling me that he's town, trying his best to cover for his early mistakes. I feel like everyone pushing for eberron is trying too hard to have a lynch today, though whether it's a mislynch or an information lynch probably depends on the person voting. Honestly, eberron is the ULTRA PRIME #1 info lynch, because of the ridiculous number of people attacking or supporting him, so even then, there's not much to go on, at least until Eberron flips, if he does get lynched/killed.

eberron - 2 (Sotek, Granolaman)

'everyone'

Heck, I don't even know anymore. Let's kill 'em both ('em being Sol and Garu here, not Garu and Seedy (whom I still feel safe about)). Ugh, look at all this no-commitment no-reasoning doubt:

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dont like truegreen for completly deciding slorange is impossible,

think garu is a bit meh overall, with his one note post and his grrr at the tek who imo would be pretty easy to mislynch (neautral on him rn tho)

gnauga started off hrm but got pretty good imo

dont really like pala

nola is all over the place he might be a third party if those are even in this game

still dont really like akumu but its lessening

i think that if we are going to go after an active player either granola or truegreen are our best bets, the former for his hard boner on people and the latter for being overly weird and super dedicated to having slorange be wrong

if we are going for a lurker id say bigros posts make him sort of unpleasant but pbbt???

nova has made a commendable effort but i dont like the reliance on the past esp since i havent played this game fo realz yo in ages

So, uh... I guess here's a revised list of my scumspects (in approximate order of would-see-lynched):

Solaris
Garuru
Schazer more than ever (and see how I feel about Gnauga after her flip)
Truegreen still but not as much
Chwoka who is largely silent and hides behind "Oh I am just a newbie I guess I can't help" too much when he is around

I would be more than happy with any of those. I'm reluctantly positing a town read on the following players, in no particular order:

Mirdini
Seedy
Nova
Akumu
Palamedes maaaybe
Me still, I am great

That was more stream of consciousness and longer than I intended it to be when I started but v0v

At least when I end up dead in I'm estimating three days, it'll be something to look at.

No fact seagull you have ruined my opener

No one cares about your wants and desires except insofar as it furthers their own

You're a jerk, fact seagull

1. As some people noted yesterday cyber did not really make sense as a night kill target - he'd barely posted on day one (a total of 4 posts in this thread), and isn't particularly known as someone scum would want to murder otherwise. The only theory that holds up with cyber being intentionally shot is Schazer's 'scum shot a lurker to do the game a favor' which is not one I'm convinced by, see 2.
   
   
2. Despite my posting what, 3 times through the first two days I'm killed N2. This doesn't hold up with the 'scum want to keep the game fun' theory because even without my posting day 2 I'd still done more than some other players. It also doesn't make sense from a pure 'shoot the most in-this-game threatening people' angle either since well my absence. Which leaves the 'shoot dini he's dangerous' meta-reasoning that points heavily towards the mafia trying to off me N1 as well.

I have noticed something of an inconsistency within your statements.

The statements you made are as follows.

1. You claim Cyber did not make sense as a nightkill target due to his poor posting frequency

2. You claim you also did not post frequently.

3. You claim the mafia targeted you because you were labeled as 'Dangerous'

4. You support your 'Dangerous' claim by saying it would not make sense to kill you normally due to your low post frequency.

You have come to several conclusions that seem to support this, the backbone of your argument seems to be that Cyber was not killed by the mafia.

However, if we look at this from the viewpoint of Cyber being killed by the mafia we notice an interesting pattern.

1. You and Cyber both had a low post frequency but enough to be merely seen as semi-active.

This suggests to me that Cyber was deliberately targeted the first night as a sort of 'safe' kill of sorts. I believe you have been targeted for a similar reason.

I believe that Scum are following a pattern of hitting semi-active players, those that are neither very active nor simply inactive. My argument is as follows.

1. I can see no reason Scum would have identified you as dangerous before the first night. (If there is some power that can do this I would like to know)

2. Assuming (1.) is true and there has been no night-kill on another player highly active or inactive this suggests that even if Mirdini was targeted the first night it is due to his semi-activity or something he stated in one of his few posts not any determined 'dangerousness'.

3. Cyber was killed night one.

4. Mirdini was hit night two

5. Cyber shared a similar level of activity as Mirdini.

6. Mafia perform most if not all night kills. As they are always the same their kills are likely to share some logical reasoning or methodology. Basically it will produce a pattern.

7. If both (3.) and (4.) are accurate and we take (6.) into consideration, if we are to find a definite pattern between kills over a period of nights they are likely to be perpetrated by the same person, most likely the mafia. If we take (5.) into consideration and agree it is a pattern (which is supported by (2.)), we can be reasonably sure that both Cyber and Mirdini were targeted by the same person or group of people.


Mirdini, I think you have internalized this attack too much, assuming that it is something specific to you that has lead to the attack. I propose that it is the continuation of a specific pattern which gives us insight into the Mafia's thought processes.