Nostalgfia - GAME OVER SCUM WIN

Yeah no you don't get to hide on the sideline.

Get in the fray and form some opinions or die.

Vote: a52

That's very rude of you.

You asked for my thoughts on lurker-hunting. I think you just answered that question for me. Not a huge fan.

@ coldblooded

pharmonions onions

1) soli - informative so far. trustworthy (for now).

2) nercania - ...just there! kinda dubious but not rly.

3) csj - scrappy. v. scrappy. readings - ok for now. maybe dubious.

I should say on the front of nolynching on d1 i still don't understand why some people say that it's a bad thing. Like, sure, you gain some information by learning who the dead person was, but that seems like pretty worthless information at a bad cost if (when, usually) you lynch a townie in the process? It seems like it helps the mafia more than anything? I mean I'm like, not nearly as deep on maf strats as many of the others so, idk but y'know. It seems counterintuitive.

i'm a little with a52 on 'information gathering' but not because i think people trying to stir up information is bad and I think that "wow sure are making much ado about nothing maybe YOU'RE the scum" is a little bit uh, weird at best.

i'm mostly quiet because i always second guess myself on actually saying things until i feel confident, and i'm never confident!

For example, I had a whole paragraph here about how I thought seedy seemed a little, uh, seedy, but skimming the thread again i'm not sure how much it had to stand on but I still do think harping on Agent for having 'vague opinions' on a day where all we've got as far as i can tell is vague information is a little bit weirdly harsh and I don't like it.

speaking of vague information i don't think wheat being a dog is inherently suspicious, and schazer's quick to jump on the hospital thing made me feel not good but i don't have a constructive feeling on it

1) soli - informative so far. trustworthy (for now).

Is that Soli as in Sunspider or Soli as in Solaris?

Sunspider @coldblooded

i dont want to get the discussion about day one lynching on day two but ultimately whats the point of there being a day one if you arent going to do anything with it lmao

schaz jumping on the hospital thing is by itself like, kinda reasonable, given things, given the flavor of this game its ~reasonable~ for the flavor of doctoring involing one

Scumfishing is a thing too; making particular comments and throwing out lines specifically to draw out scum-positive responses.

Schazer's voting has been all over the place and immediately jumping on the idea of a hospital was a big departure from their reserved D1 posting. Votes that confuse me are granola accusing spider and me pairing yet voting solaris, pharm joining nec on wheat and the sheer volume of abstentions.

but I wouldn't call you scummy for looking for scum
also you haven't been doing much of that

also yeah granola is correct, the votals go

person being voted for(number of votes) - 1st voter, 2nd voter, etc.

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Spoiler

I should say on the front of nolynching on d1 i still don't understand why some people say that it's a bad thing. Like, sure, you gain some information by learning who the dead person was, but that seems like pretty worthless information at a bad cost if (when, usually) you lynch a townie in the process? It seems like it helps the mafia more than anything? I mean I'm like, not nearly as deep on maf strats as many of the others so, idk but y'know. It seems counterintuitive.

i'm a little with a52 on 'information gathering' but not because i think people trying to stir up information is bad and I think that "wow sure are making much ado about nothing maybe YOU'RE the scum" is a little bit uh, weird at best.

i'm mostly quiet because i always second guess myself on actually saying things until i feel confident, and i'm never confident!

For example, I had a whole paragraph here about how I thought seedy seemed a little, uh, seedy, but skimming the thread again i'm not sure how much it had to stand on but I still do think harping on Agent for having 'vague opinions' on a day where all we've got as far as i can tell is vague information is a little bit weirdly harsh and I don't like it.

speaking of vague information i don't think wheat being a dog is inherently suspicious, and schazer's quick to jump on the hospital thing made me feel not good but i don't have a constructive feeling on it

it is time for me to be the overly helpful person and explain some things. luckily, much of your questions are connected to a fundamental concept at the heart of mafia, which makes for a neat thesis statement

in lieu of inforoles claiming, all of the information town has to go on in a mafia game is the results of death, the flips.

these flips are MEANINGLESS if they are not CONNECTED to living players who had concrete opinions on the person

no lynching on d1 can be a really bad thing if people "always" no lynch so that everyone knows there's not a lot of pressure or commitment d1. yesterday was alright because there was some actual pressure and the possibility of a lynch. but if no one does much of anything d1 town essentially goes into d2 with hardly any more info than they had d1. imo you don't HAVE to lynch d1 but there's good reasons to at least seriously pursue one.

to continue this, we all state our opinions (even if it's just a hunch and we're not totally sure, even if they might change later) to give us meaningful connections to other players. the IDEA is that since town is trying to scumhunt, and scum is only attempting to appear to scumhunt, the connections formed will...be different. this is a sort of weird area and a lot of it is instinct and guesswork.

buuuut the long and short of it is
1. "the game" as it is doesn't work out as well as it could if people don't give concrete opinions and COMMIT to things
2. scum knows that committing to things is dangerous and may possibly incriminate them in the future, and is scared of committing to stuff for these reasons

these 2 reasons are why we pressure people who are being vague and waffling and trying to "participate" without actually being willing to seen saying anything in particular. I guess it might seem a little "mean" to put a spotlight on agent, but really I could pressure a lot of people in this thread for that.

Alright I reread all of CSJ's and Sunspider's posts but didn't really get that much out of it co-alignment wise TBH.

As far as CSJ goes, I could care less about all the mechanics talk, but one thing that caught my eye was that Day 1 vote where he votes Robottobt for inactivity, but then immediately withdraws it after Robot makes a post that basically amounts to "Hey everyone, I'm here, goodbye!" Like... was that it? Was that all you wanted from them?

Then Day 2 CSJ says he's fine with lynching Robot and even talks at them for a bit about unrelated games, but doesn't really seem to be interested in trying to draw out any more info from them. I kind of wanna know what your thought process here is CSJ.

_________________________________

Anyway, Pharms answering my questions by saying that they have a "trustworthy" view of the player they were voting for all of day 1, and a "dubious but not rly" view of the player they joined a votewagon with is extremely [insert frowny-face emoji here], and I kinda want to keep my vote here until she comes up with some better answers.

Pharms, why are you voting for Wheat, and what do you think of Seedy, Granola, and a52?

i love how someone cold heartedly killed me after my ONLY RECENT INTERACTION ON THESE FORUMS.

What a great community.




(note: is joke pls no mad)

Re: the hospital stuff I basically ran into info that there's a Bomb item; the database claims that being targeted with that will leave you unable to perform night actions until you're targeted by the appropriate role or item.

I was concerned the hospital cat mentioned might have been a role-unblocking that would have been preferable to not reveal to scum but then it turned out there was a whole bunch of egg on my face, so.

My current list of "reads" is mostly just a ranked list in terms of activity in the thread so like. I really don't see the appeal in trying to lynch any of the half-dozen-odd players who are keeping this thread properly active right now? If any of y'all are scum you're just providing more rope to hang once a few more flips happen y'know

My read on robot was/is essentially, inexperienced town, though the limited activity could be scummy, it's pretty flimsy and like more or less all my votes, more about encouraging discussion than intent to lynch. I take a flimsy excuse on face value on day 1 but keep it in mind if the pattern continues.

Speaking of encouraging discussion, thanks for at least apologising and clarifying your reasoning, schazer. While it's not enough for me to stop keeping an eye open, it's enough for me to unvote and instead pull attention towards the good mr mirdini. Both spidey and M have yet to involve themselves today and while I could pin either, mirdini was less active and more vague imho d1.

Hey a52 what is the something out of nothing you mentioned? How have the four granola mentioned to you been particularly suspicious compared to everyone else? You said you thought at least one of them was probably hiding scum, who would you bet on?

Also going to parrot granola and seedy a little but in general no, sitting on the sideline 'gathering information' isn't good! You have to go out there and make the information happen, drag it out into the open and go for the kill with your own two hands. Ask questions, state opinions (even if you're not 100% on why you feel that way), and put pressure on people who are being noncommital or miscellaneously shady.

Moving on, Wheat I think you're cool but the dog RP better stay at least somewhat productive or I'm going to have to shoot you soon.

You know, if I don't end up shooting Robottobt first, which will probably happen at some point unless people want to help me lynch them for probably having the most posts in the game for someone who hasn't done anything but excuse why they aren't doing anything.

Fine, if that's the way we're insisting on playing.

Cat, Pharmacy, Wheat, tell me exactly why you all visited the same person last night.

Vote: Pharmacy

Well I mean I insist on playing, yeah. The game's about interaction, If we all just watch and wait on outright info there'd be basically no posting at all outside of claims. I'm sorry if I made you feel like you had to directly drop what you have like that, I was just hoping that you (and others) would go into more detail with your comments or, in the case of people like Robottobt, give some to begin with.

Wheat that's not what I'm saying and I apologize if I was being that unclear. I'm not saying you can't be your dog, you'll notice I haven't come after you at all for that in any way, I'm just saying that I'm hoping that you being a dog or whatever you want won't be obtrusive to the game? 'Everyone has their own way of playing' shouldn't be an excuse, otherwise you can't vote for anyone unless you have concrete proof because hey, it's just that person's personal play style.

I don't think that's what you're doing, but the whole 'INSTRUCTIONS' post just put me off - it read like a threat saying that people who want to play the game with you have to treat you in a special way from here on out, which seemed strange next to you getting defensive about people telling you to play their way. I feel like it might not be what you intended, but it was the gut reaction I had so I made a comment addressing it!

Getting in on voting seems like a thing I should do, so. Um. Pharmacy.

yeah, it’s not like you “have” to play this way, but if you don’t participate until there’s claims or big events then...day is just a place where we chat or attempt to be funny while we wait for night. which isn’t really that fun to me at least, and it makes the game totally about night actions which isn’t great if you don’t have one

idk, anyone is free to ignore what I said, I’d hope that I don’t have to relentlessly qualify everything I say with “but that’s my opinion I guess maybe idk it’s just what I personally sorta think” or some similar spiel just to not be seen as overly opinionated

but that doesn’t mean I’m not gonna vote for people I think are acting weird, cuz...that’s how I play the game. you can kill me for my playstyle and I can kill you for yours, It’s Equality

Hey I am actually legitimately pleased you've shown up Robo (may I call you Robo?), especially since it means another opinion for the pile! If I may ask, why Pharmacy over all of the other people being looked at/talked about? What do you think about me coming at you as much as I have been?

Sorry y'all, work is kicking my butt. I'll do my best to keep up though. If I miss any questions aimed my way, please poke me.

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I should say on the front of nolynching on d1 i still don't understand why some people say that it's a bad thing.

In a nutshell, it's bad because town leaves the killing power entirely in the hands of the scum team for a turn, giving them a free head-start plus the ability to shape the only hard info available on Day 2 (which further cements their advantage as being the informed minority, whose goal is to sew confusion and paranoia). Also, RE: Day 1 votes are fake and bad, you rarely ever have hard evidence in Mafia until late game, and for the most part have to rely on reads and player behavior, which you can ABSOLUTELY still do on Day 1. I tend to see pushing to abstain on Day 1 as scummy, but more so when the game's more Serious Business. I wouldn't consider it a hard scumtell in this game.

@CB: the connection is primarily the bomb defense, spoids hasn't shown up since then. Spoids seemed a little scummy before dropping off the map, but CSJ has been lighting up the scumdar all game and I'm barely seeing anyone mention it which is where the paranoia's setting in.

Nola, you're trying really hard to lump me and CSJ together, and claim they're nothing but suspicious... so much so that their behavior automatically makes me suspicious too... and yet you're no longer voting for them. I find this Very Interesting.

There's a simple gambit I see a lot of the time, where one scum player buddies with a Townie, and a second scum player calls this out as suspicious and votes them when there's a low risk of actually killing them, to distance them from the buddying scum player. Basic idea is, you've established yourself as having been "suspicious" of your teammate all game, and when they die and roleflip (ideally toward the end of the game) you can use it to earn trust from the remaining town. Meanwhile, when the buddying player dies, that makes the Townie they were buddying with look suspicious enough to implicate them for the Town to lynch the next day, evening up the score, letting the remaining scum cast suspicion on any other Town who voted for an innocent the day after that, and generally fomenting distrust in the Town for a while to soften them up for Endgame. And because the Townie on the receiving end can do nothing to prevent the buddying, there's basically no defense except to play well and hope the gambit becomes apparent once it's finally triggered.

What do you think of that, Nola? And another quick question. You claimed to have a gun with a scope. Did you attempt to use it last night? Just idly curious.

Getting in on voting seems like a thing I should do, so. Um. Pharmacy.

Heya Robottobt. Good of you to join us too. I'm also interested to hear why you're voting Pharms, after just idly chatting and lurking the periphery for the last 2 game days.

Anyway, Pharms answering my questions by saying that they have a "trustworthy" view of the player they were voting for all of day 1, and a "dubious but not rly" view of the player they joined a votewagon with is extremely [insert frowny-face emoji here], and I kinda want to keep my vote here until she comes up with some better answers.

Speaking of, you raise a darn good point CB. I was wondering the same.

Heya Pharmacy, why did you apologize while voting me yesterday, then leave it put all day? All the while apparently finding me trustworthy and so on? Like, you realize that this doesn't Internally Consistent very much.

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SUNSPIDER:
Glad you could finally join us
On the old scum-hunt safari.
P. sure you're peddling Snake Oil, though,
so Vote: Pharmacy. Sorry.

Hi I'm here sorry for not posting up until now School Happened.

I should say on the front of nolynching on d1 i still don't understand why some people say that it's a bad thing. Like, sure, you gain some information by learning who the dead person was, but that seems like pretty worthless information at a bad cost if (when, usually) you lynch a townie in the process? It seems like it helps the mafia more than anything? I mean I'm like, not nearly as deep on maf strats as many of the others so, idk but y'know. It seems counterintuitive.

As seedy ((and now Sunspider wow I'm really late to the party)) pointed out (I started this paragraph before I read her post, whoops), the point of lynching on day 1 is not to get information by learning who the dead person was, but get information by forcing people to Have Opinions on day 1, opinions that players can come back to later in light of later flips/lynches. Particularly scum are pretty vulnerable to making comments on a 'productive' day one that can come back to bite them later in the game.

While I don't want to drown myself in wine over the night kill, I'm honestly questioning if sinkingsailor was actually the mafia night kill, especially since he flipped as town roleblocker which may well mean the mafia kill was prevented somehow?

I'm also curious enough to Vote: Palamedes because Pala you mentioned in post #312 that you have 'much better bets to go on' than voting CSJ.

What you've done today so far is vote Robottobt for making active empty-posts which you said you felt was scummy, waffle re: CSJ/Seedy opinions, wave around a gun? and engage with wheat playstyle/general meta-commentary and then just still poking at Robottobt (who is, to be fair, so far mostly empy posting).

So I guess my question is what are some of the other 'much better bets' you mentioned because so far all I've seen is the Robottobt bet, which feels pretty lukewarm (could be either nervous scum or nervous/not-super-writing-heavy town) to me.

Also, elephant in the room, I guess a52's claimed voyeur? and I don't think we should ignore that just because we think he's town and scum will somehow entirely miss that post (scum generally don't).

On the other hand, a52, asking 3 presumably visiting roles what they were doing should, by the law of probability, reveal more town power roles than scum power roles so I'm not sure what you're doing is actually conducive to winning this game (unless, I guess, you're a scum voyeur :v).

Voyeur role being one that picks/visits a person and gets to see everyone who visits that person, for those unfamiliar with the role lingo.

On the other OTHER hand if one of pharmacy/cat/wheat is a doctor that would feel like pretty strong evidence to me that one of the other two is scum.

That said, if one of them IS doctor I'm not sure that's worth them claiming it. OTOH scum now know that whatever number of those three that aren't scum are town visiting roles, so presumably they'd be high on the to-kill list anyway.

to quad-post assuming a52 is not just making shit up there is an uncomfortably large amount of mechanical information floating around now that people have just kind of glazed over and that feels Weird to me, y'all.

Oh hey question for everyone:

Who opened their present before D1 finished? Who's yet to open theirs?

Me, I opened mine start of D2. Something's bugging me.

I opened mine start of D1 and I'm sitting on an item that's useless unless friendly people want to give me their items, so that's fun.