This is gonna be the thread where we talk about stuff

I'm inclined to agree with Supes in that the definition posited by Fogel did have at least some subjective sentimentality behind it, because in cold-hearted retrospect I can't really concretely say Forum Adventures was/is The Best Thing.

I'd hazard my definition of a "community" is just a group of people who congregated under some manner of common interest, but whose association is later redefined/better-defined by the fact they know each other as people. People with jobs and school and problems and family and love lives and the constant cosmic joke that is growing up, and in some capacity or another you try help each other out. Usually that's just giving good life advice from relevant personal experience, but you might find other ways of doing it.

Whatever definition a "fandom" has definitely needs to encompass the fact that a fandom is composed of people who define their (online) personality (to some extent) based on the media they like. A fandom is great because you're going to meet people who like the things you like, which gives you something to talk about. Then you learn down the track that some people in that fandom have hobbies (drawing, composing, coding, crafting) and you shift to talking about those crafts (what you produce and how you produce it, as opposed to what some uninterested third party is producing) instead. You're extremely unlikely to ever get to know anybody online as a person without that initial point of interest, which is why fandoms aren't all bad.

The corollary of course is that if you never bother to seek out that human element from the other participants in your fandom, then individual names/faces can come and go over time and you can still be totally content because there's always someone to talk to about That One Show.

Unpopular opinion: I would probably go as far to say that Grand Battles is a fandom, not a community. A fandom with pretty good author-reader dialogue, sure, and with a decent community within it, but still. fandom.

E:

I don't think this is fair. The majority of my free time (and money, when I have it) is spent on my hobbies or other creative endeavors. I collect records and games because I am passionate about music and games as art forms. The joy I experience and share with others is just as meaningful and life-changing to me as anything I've experienced in the "real world". If I had just one hour a week to myself I would still spend it gaming or writing music. You can't make sweeping generalizations about fandoms of any one kind of media like that just because a lot of Hussie's fans are shitty. That is fallacious.

Stone-cold truth (that I would be a hypocrite if I said you should follow, please bear in mind!): if you wanted to maximise human betterment with your leisure time/hobby money, you'd be better off spending it doing humanitarian things either locally or into an overseas venture. I am not saying you should and that you are a bad person for not doing so. Wheat is not saying it either, seeing as I sorely doubt he's abstained from consumption of such media.

An interesting distinction I just realised is that you've (as in Superfrequency specifically) paid for the music you listen to, and the games you play. A lot of the Big Fandoms get their kicks for free, because it's freely distributed online (MSPA), through the Original Idiot Box (cartoons), or they can enjoy it for free because of rampant piracy (emulator-compatible games or TV shows whose popularity incentivises people to illegally distribute them, a la Pokemon or Madoka Magica or MLP+Adventure Time or scanlations of manga).

It never occurred to me how much a work being freely available also quickly shifts the dynamic of how entitlement/negotiating clout works. Fandoms get outraged when the show they've been enjoying through technically-illegal torrents/youtubes faces cancellation. If it's free, the whole thing's suddenly hell of a lot more ephermeal - the fandom just doesn't acknowledge that and takes it just as seriously as if they'd been financially shortchanged. Just look at MSPAFA, and how our attempts to negotiate what we felt were constructive changes to the system.

Gonna do that thing where you say basically the same thing as someone else but phrased slightly differently so it looks like you're taking a different stand:

I think that DF made a really good distinction between "fandoms" and "communities" where the focus of one is the object of their enjoyment and the focus of the other is the members of the community.

Now these definitions are not exclusive from one another, like Schazer said a community could simply be a group of people who share a common trait (like living near each other, or all enjoying the same thing). But there is a noticeable difference in a community where most of the members are just focused on the object of interest and one where the object of interest has shifted to the members of the community itself.

I don't see sharing something you enjoy with someone else as somehow being less valuable than whatever the alternative is supposed to be.

Soups, I recall talking with you once about friendships in general, and (if I recall correctly) about your distaste for the idea of "eating next to someone" or "sitting next to somebody at a movie" as being an accepted pathway for establishing new/existing relationships because they didn't allow them to share any real external interests. I remember your stance being something along the lines of "If someone doesn't enjoy the same things I enjoy, why would I be friends with them?" (Please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth!)

That struck me as a very utilitarian focus on friendship (which, after reading up a bit, I realize utilitarian isn't the right term here (this site, has a nice and quick breakdown of different types of friendships, ala Aristotle)). Not that you can't have a blast enjoying the same things someone else enjoys, and I also remember you making a very good point about how painful it would be to try and maintain a friendship with someone where you shared no common interests. I would venture to say,though, that the natural progression of things is that eventually, as you build experiences with someone, the focus of that friendship becomes more than just whatever it was that initially brought the two of you together (be it music, or forum adventures, or advanced wars).

If the friendship was just about the object of interest, then if something happened where that object no longer existed, then the friendship would dissolve. A baseball team shuts down, and fans of that team no longer meet. A show gets cancelled, and fans of that show part ways. But as DF, mentioned in his example (and I would venture that this site itself is a very similar example) people will still meet if they are meeting because their focus is on the people they know.

I want to toss in here that the particular conversation I'm referencing, exemplifies something I really like about Soups. She is stalwart in her opinions and that causes people to re-evaluate their positions on existing issues. I left that conversation with the idea that I had undervalued the role of common-interest in the formation and development of quality relationships. I would dare to say that while I could care less about pokemon LP's or old record labels (i am exaggerating a bit here), I would still be disappointed if she suddenly disappeared, because I would miss that particular quality of her character.


Really, I think I could say something similar for anyone here. I could take or leave grandbattles or forum adventures, but the reason I come here (and not MSPAF) is because I enjoy the character and company of most people here. It's what I think drives this particular community. And that is "the alternative" is supposed to be.

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SpoilerAlso, A++ use of the emoticon

I've been reflecting on it, and I think I see what bothers me about fandoms more clearly now.

When you get down to it, what is a fandom? It's a group of people with a common interest in a work, who talk to each other about that work.

Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. People like something, they want to talk to other people who like it about that thing. That's normal.

The problem comes with trying to make that the basis of a community. Because then the message of "we like this thing, come talk to us about it" cares the exclusionary subtext of "if you don't like this thing, don't bother coming in".

Take Grand Battles, for instance; whether you want to call it a fandom or not, the fact is that every one of us is part of a larger, more diverse community of people with no interest in or even a dislike of battles. (Heck, most of us are even in multiple online communities, not to mention physical communities of real people.) We may have issues within the context of that smaller group, but we generally keep those issues from extending into our other communities.

And a fandom can certainly be an entry point into a community. But a fandom can't be an effective community without becoming less of a fandom. The issue isn't that people enjoy something and talk about it and work on projects related to it; it's that they get a skewed perspective on how important that is.

Edit: Wrote this before I saw Bob's post, looks like we covered some of the same ground.

In fact, this line of conversation brings us to the idea of supererogatory acts; in particular the idea of 'performing above and beyond the call of duty'.

[insert picture of actor standing on the latest in a series of generic war videogames]

To put it more simply, an individual who performs a supererogatory act is not under an expectation or obligation to do it, and won't be to blame for the consequences of not performing such an act.

There's a school of thought that proposes that some acts are defined as 'supererogatory' even though by definition of their 'duty' the individuals involved have not performed as such:

For example, part of a teacher's duty is to keep their pupils safe - if they risk their own lives to save their students from a horrific-chemistry-lab-accident-turned-building-bonfire, then they are considered to have performed a supererogatory act, though they have themselves not gone above what their duty specifies.

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SpoilerIt can be said that there is the mitigating factor of risking one's life, but that opens a whole new can of worms. Obviously, if they save their own skin without trying to save any students, then they've been negligent in their duty. However, saving any number of students, even one, already puts the risk-taking factor into account, so is there a certain number of students the teacher is supposed to save before the accolade of a supererogatory act can be given?

You certainly wouldn't say that a teacher who only managed to save one student did the best they could - even if they did.

The same school of thought proposes that the status of a supererogatory act is given in order to 'raise the bar', so to speak - in order to excuse oneself for the moral failings of using free time without the aim of bettering others.



Also, I really like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

That IRC log with Chwoka finally made me understand your point, Mike. I even said you were "taking it too far", i apologize for that. I've been following this conversation waiting for an opportunity to come in and say something meaningful but i never gave myself that opportunity and probably won't do it later so i'm gonna use this opportune opportunity to say i'm going to try to be less self-indulgent in the future.

I can't tell you how uncomfortable it makes me feel to receive completely undeserved compliments to my character. Some might prefer the adjectives "abrasive", "opinionated" and "obstinate".

Can't tell if biting irony or just too nice.

Always remember that qualities are subjective! Some may find them annoying, some others inspiring; some people find nerds dumb and boring, some others find them interesting and passionate. Personally, i find your stalwartness worth of admiration since it's not just simple stubbornness. I wish i had less of a desire to please people, i've come to the realization that i'm a person-pleaser and i feel bad for all the compliments i've received for being nice since technically i wasn't really "being myself" BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

So, is producing media really giving something back to society? I've always thought of it more as a selfish act since i'm the one getting the most enjoyment out of it.

Hi guys. I missed you so now I'm back.
For some reason I thought it'd be a good idea to hiatus my activity here and get my life together or something. That didn't really happen, but I'm back anyway. Maybe?

Psh, lives. Isn't there a John Lennon quote about how they're what happen when you're busy making other plans?

Yeah, it seemed like a waste of time. Good thing I'm back here now, amirite?

That is probably true.

Also, argh. So many things on my plate right now.

Of the projects variety? Of the arrgh-why-do-I-have-to-deal-with-this variety?
...of the food variety?

I had too much of the food variety on my plate earlier today. Except for the plate part.

I ordered an egg roll to go with my dinner and ended up getting three, each the size of a large burrito. I ended up eating about 1/5 of one : (

That sounds delicious!
Which leads us to the next question: What aspect of an Infinity Biscuit is infinite?

Of the projects variety? Of the arrgh-why-do-I-have-to-deal-with-this variety?
...of the food variety?

The second. A ton of stuff, like preparing for far too many tests and suchlike. It's doable, just annoying.

That sounds delicious!
Which leads us to the next question: What aspect of an Infinity Biscuit is infinite?

Based on the etymology, temporal.

But
But my Parallels and Perpendicularities is there
:c

I don't think they would do that, it'd affect the brand and it's professional image.

I don't think they would do that, it'd affect the brand and it's professional image.

I laughed, good joke sir.

Well hey, I've only heard it second-hand, but: one of the modmins I asked said as far as they knew "they intend to open the private Kickstarter backers blog on the forums soon".

That's probably not the one single reason why the forums aren't back up yet (I sent Rince an ask on tumblr but nothing doing yet), but it makes Ed's comment funnier in a two-wrongs-making-a-right kind of way.

It allegedly is "almost there," except I don't really know how long it's said that.
P&P had better be okay, or I will be wrathful. Probably ineffectively wrathful, but wrathful nonetheless.
But if it really is down for good, I expect there to be backups of that stuff available upon request.

Or, well, "expect" is maybe too strong of a word.
Nngh.

back when talks were being made by NaS of up and deleting MSPAFA because it didn't "fit with the brand,"

What, what, really? Seriously? They seriously said this?
I... what?

he said later that he's never going to do that but it was in IRC and I didn't save a log so you'd have to take my word for it
e: also pretty sure it's not even his call any more regardless

I've never been involved with the MSPA forums so I'm not sure what's going on but with talk about the forum's relation to the MSPA brand, how does it relate that at least one other forum (Dinosaur Comics) is hosted on that, too?

I've never been involved with the MSPA forums so I'm not sure what's going on but with talk about the forum's relation to the MSPA brand, how does it relate that at least one other forum (Dinosaur Comics) is hosted on that, too?

Homestuck is basically just Dinosaur Comics fanfiction. Andrew's not even trying to hide it anymore.

Short version: MSPAFA is MSPA Forums Adventures, where most of us primarily hail from. That's the part of the MSPA forums where all the cool creative projects go, so if they delete it, a pretty huge number of people would lose a pretty huge body of creative work, not to mention the community.
I don't know what's up with all this talk about "brand," I've been away for a couple of years. But there was always this weird, passive-aggressive thing between the admins and the MSPAFA folks. I never understood what that was about.
Except that internet forums politics/drama are universally and inevitably stupid, and having been a forums admin, I wouldn't wish the job on anybody. Certainly not for a forums as huge as MSPA.