Poll: Videogames or videogame accesories?

**Schazer** · 10-15-2013, 04:21 PM

Aaaaaaaaaah my friend safari brings up Dedenne, Stunfisk, and now that I've beaten the Elite Four, slot three is GALVANTULA

YES GOOD

If anyone wants thunderspiders you know which bush to fossick around in now

(Thank you Jacq for verifying this for me)

TickTickTockTock · 10-17-2013, 10:45 PM

So I've been thinking a lot about artistic video games lately, and it's depressing me that I can't really think of many (specifically those that are artistic in a literary/thematic/symbolic way, great visual design is pretty common).
About the only games I've played that used sorta-"poetic" symbolic elements to a purpose are Hotline Miami, SMT: Strange Journey, Bioshock 1 and Infinite (which had the minor downside of being terrible but it gets on the list because the designers sure tried), and ridiculously heavy-handed indie games that are basically just an interactive metaphor. And even worse, all of those are pretty superficial symbols and every attempt is made to beat you over the head with them.
I dunno, it just disappoints me a bit that none of the games I really love provide much to talk about on a symbolic level. Does anyone have examples of games that felt, as it were, "literary"? I've already heard good stuff about Shadow of the Colossus, Silent Hills, MGS?, and Please, but I think there's got to be more interesting stuff out there.

BRPXQZME · 10-18-2013, 04:38 AM

(10-17-2013, 10:45 PM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »Does anyone have examples of games that felt, as it were, "literary"?

Yes, there have been plenty of attempts at... aesthete kinda games since the early 80s or so with varying degrees of success, enjoyability, maturity, and... artsy-fartsiness, for lack of a better term. Here’s a small selection skimmed mostly from things I have heard secondhand (I have not played most of these). I’ll admit that even with a tolerance for games that do artsy stuff, I’m kind of biased towards the ones with a more pedestrian appeal, so a large number of these will be like “yeah, but that’s popular”. I also stayed away from newer stuff in compiling this, because people still talk plenty about newer stuff, and what’s more, there is a recent trend of people making lots of... like, un-games: poetry in an empty engine, all symbol, no substance. I can respect that, but I refuse to like it!

I consulted the bibliography of Replay: The History of Video Games to compile some of this selection.

- Ultima IV, an early RPG exploring the concept of virtue (after earlier entries got lumped into the existing moral panic around RPGs).
- Planescape: Torment, a 1999 RPG commonly lauded as “deep” and “philosophical” by people older than me. Apparently you should have some demons of your own before this game will do much for you.
- Mass Effect, an RPG trilogy bringing a universe of its own to life in a way you can explore rather freely (but myself having later looked at some of its clear inspirations, I think some of the critical praise has to be tempered because a lot of it seems to be from sci-fi illiterati).
- Phantasy Star I–IV, which is not big on the High Art side of things compared to most other things in this list, and so much about them makes them kind of painful to play now, but these games have things about them that are a bit different from most other JRPGs and they’re definitely worth experiencing. Rieko Kodama is probably underappreciated as a game designer.
- Final Fantasy is a ridiculously popular series that needs no introduction and some of the games are more mature about things than others. If you ignore the silly / angst stuff, there are some real gems of introspection in what is otherwise about as classy as liking 80s/90s action flicks. I’m being coy on specifics, aren’t I? Well, these days after a number of incidents, I’m reluctant to provide fodder for people to mindlessly find it out of context or whatever and start a “NOOOOO THAT ONE SUCKED” war.
- And while I’m already listing things that are tootin’ mainstream (if not quite RPGs?), Majora’s Mask and Link’s Awakening in The Legend of Zelda series appeal to me in ways that other entries in the series do not. There is something about how tightly constructed they are and the fundamental struggles in their scenarios.
- The Mother series is (allegedly) outstanding in its unconventional everything. Despite the Peanuts-esque artwork and quirky outlook, they are surprisingly touching stories.
- A number of Chunsoft games that never made it overseas are known for well made stories and would probably do well among critical circles if they did manage to get translated. I’m trying to do something about it, but it’s never worked out. The ones that have been coming out lately have been localized for English and if I’m not mistaken, they’ve found something of a niche.
- Infocom text adventures A Mind Forever Voyaging and Trinity were a bit politically minded and some people say they reached literary excellence (viewpoint-wise they are anti-Reagan and anti-nuclear respectively).
- Infocom text adventures in general are worth looking into.
- I hear tell that the early games in France started out more artistic. I don’t know much about them and I wouldn’t know where to find more. A lot of them aren’t in English at all to this day.
- I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream was a video game version of Harlan Ellison’s story made with his direct involvement. His stuff is kind of weird and cruel, but it wouldn’t really be him otherwise.
- The Last Express is where Jordan Mechner spent his money from Prince of Persia. While it’s a bit frustrating as a game, it’s a very neat tale and really shouldn’t have failed as hard and expensively as it did.
- Deus Ex is, to this day, still celebrated for allowing the player to choose what approach to use to accomplish missions. As much as the designers could manage, it is opposed to having a story/setting that doesn’t respond to the way you handle things.
- Siren (aka Forbidden Siren) is a game I will never play because it’s psychological horror stuff, but I’ve read through the Let’s Play and it is has things in it, both story-wise and gameplay-wise, that I have to keep bringing up in discussions with other game design students. If you are prone to existential crises about the nature of the afterlife, this game may just give you one.
- S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl is a very stark presentation of a post-apocalyptic place and your chances of survival in one, to put it one way.
- Balance of Power is an old strategy game about the Cold War, made during the Cold War. Chris Crawford wanted to treat the subject seriously; in case of thermonuclear warfare, the game will end and you will be criticized.
- I like to describe L.A. Noire as a really good movie inextricably fused with some really bad gameplay. It’s got the noir thing down pretty well during story segments, and during game segments... Cole Phelps is a policeman who singlehandedly killed 99% of the gangsters in Los Angeles and stole every kind of vehicle on the road in the late 1940s (and a few that weren’t), driving all of them poorly.
- I don’t know if there is a copy of it that can be found anymore, but as a kid I played a game called “The Stars of the Harlem Renaissance” which as I recall was a typical ehhhhh edutainment thing, but something I thought was cool about it as a Games Are Art™ thing was that in the game Langston Hughes would help you fill in some blanks to write a poem. Maybe I should see if my copy doesn’t have bit rot; that’s something probably worth preserving.

Since art is in the eye of the beholder, I’m sure some of these mentionings will strike people familiar with these works as completely off the mark, but I’m willing to take that risk. Some of these, the game parts may detract a bit from the artistic elements for individual players (e.g. Mass Effect would probably be pretty bad if you don’t like shooting stuff that much). And there are other aspects of art that would make a completely different list (like when people get navel-gazey about the horrifying “endgame” of SimCity 3000, or get hooked on emergent elements of roguelikes and such); I’m kind of trying to go off the prompted examples themselves.

TickTickTockTock · 10-18-2013, 06:14 AM

ok so

I very much liked the L.O.L. opening
I may look up an LP of it, as playing seems a bit out of the question since it's very expensive and for Dreamcast

@BRPXQZME
that is quite a list

I've heard of most of that before in the context of "storytelling in videogames". I get why people get excited about Mass Effect and Deus Ex on an artistic, and choice in games is definitely something that I care a lot about and want to see explored more, but I was thinking more about the use of objects/words/sounds as symbols in narrative and overall presence of motifs tying into themes. Like, stuff you write english essays about. I would honestly not have a clue if that's present or not, since I haven't played Mass Effect/Deus Ex/Planescape, but I've never actually seen people talk about them on that level.

I'm quite intrigued by Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening. People always seem to bring them up as examples of something unique in Zelda and I never quite got why. Even without knowing the endings, now that I think about it, their particular setups have more literary potential than the other zelda games. I guess those go on the "buy if I ever get a 3ds" list.

I have some vague memory of Forbidden Siren from somewhere. I may look up an LP of that as well. Horror games definitely seem to go big on the literary elements (I guess because symbolic elements are typically used over literal ones when you want to manipulate tone, and creating a specific tone is kinda the point of horror).

Mother is something I definitely should have thought of. You saying that actually reminded me of OFF, which is one of the weirdest and most affecting games I've ever played. Also everyone should play OFF. I guess batshit absurdity is just my taste in jrpgs.

L. A. Noire is also something I'll look into I guess. I have vague memories of people saying things about most of these games, but as for what was said who knows.

And I would agree that text/adventure games are also a goldmine as far as literary merit is concerned. I guess it's because, given a lack of gameplay elements, the designers spend more time thinking about constructing environment and story. That sounded like I am perpetuating the idiotic gameplay/story false debate but I swear I wasn't. My dream for video games is a day where the gameplay awesomeness of the innovative AAAs is combined with the narrative awesomeness of the cultiest indie games.

and finally, I would like to open up Pandora's Box and ask
which final fantasies
are the best (and/or most pretentious)
The only one I've ever played is VI GBA port, and that was one of my favorite games of all time, but I just liked it because the mechanics were tight and the story was appropriately convoluted and the sprites were awesome. Also if anything deep was going on I probably missed it because I was like 13.

MaxieSatan · 10-18-2013, 06:21 AM

(10-18-2013, 12:59 AM)Superfrequency Wrote: »Game Freak is so out of ideas.

Game Freak never "ran out" of ideas. There have always been shitty Pokemon and interesting ones. You are letting nostalgia blind you to this.

Spoilered for lots of images.

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Quote:and even plagiarism of other series.

Good old, super-original Metroid Prime! They'd never reuse a concept from another Nintendo game.

I will go enjoy my keyring and hedgehog knight but you're free to keep wallowing in nostalgia I guess.

Gnauga · 10-18-2013, 08:04 AM

gotta say, poke-keyring looks like something outta Mayu Zane's Art of Domination over in the ol' MSPAFAs. What is it made out of? If it were bent, would it feel pain? It doesn't seem to have any joints. How does it grab new keys? How did those keys get within the ring in the first place? the question!!

**Schazer** · 10-18-2013, 08:17 AM

I've had Pokethoughts traipsing round my head for a week now, and having played the whole game (and the little story they give you postgame) I'm gonna argue that there are some things they did really well.

The premise

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Firstly, yes - it's still Pokemon. You cannot honestly expect one of the world's most successful video game franchises to completely breaks their winning formula. They have not drastically changed up the formula of "catch party members, level up party members, mess around with type effectiveness and moves and occasionally gimmicky pokemon." The "plot" is still "Travel from town to town, defeat eight gyms which utilise a particular type each, beat the Elite Four and the Champion, fuck around with postgame content that's geared toward more competitive players". This with the usual side of "Evil organisation wants to fuck up the region, defeat them at some point."

The games, as usual, are still geared toward ten-year olds, but XY in particular show deliberate forethought by GF to make it an enjoyable experience for the people who were ten when they Red/Blue or even Ruby/Sapphire. Roadblocks are still arbitrary, but they've removed a lot of the infamous obnoxiousness like Whitney's Miltank in G/S/C (and the remakes) and all the Hidden Machine bullshit. The game itself is a dickton easier, but in a manner that doesn't hold your hand and lets you make your own challenges (Godbot, for example, is doing a Fairy-only run). You can clear Victory Road with three HMs (plus Fly)!

Speedrunners or people looking for a challenge may be disappointed, but training/breeding up Pokemon to create a competitive team is way easier now. Even having random battles has been optimised with integrated online function, pulling friends straight from your DS. They've even fixed saving so it's almost instantaneous, so trading with a "passerby" isn't a chore but a chance for a fun surprise.

On the note of the hand-holding, there's barely any. You get three menus on your touch screen that the game never walks you through (one for online connectivity, one Nintendogs-esque mini-game zone to increase your pokemon's affection, and a drastically simplified EV training thing for competitive battlers.) We were never walked through how to do a Pokemon Battle, you could even catch Pokemon before the quick demonstration you're given.

On the new Pokemon:

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New type combinations they introduced this gen:
Hawlucha, Flying+Fighting
Dragalge, Poison+Dragon
Trevenant, Grass+Ghost
Phantump, also Grass+Ghost
Aegislash, Ghost+Steel
Malamar, Dark+Psychic

Of the 69 new pokemon, these evolutionary lines encompass 11 pokemon with new type combinations (Dragalge's pre-evo is Water+Poison). The Mega Evos introduce Electric+Dragon with Mega Ampharos too.

Excluding half-assed Normal-type combinations, I count 27 other combinations on this list, which excludes Fairy Types. Abilities can also create a unique Pokemon competitively, like the Fire/Flying Talonflame's Gale Wing (which makes Flying-Type moves strike first). Even the Terrible Starter Bug has been gifted a move pool that makes it really interesting to fight with in a way that isn't gimmicky or obnoxious.

Game Freak make an especial effort to incorporate new ideas each generation which will be interesting for people to fight with in-game, as well as being fun new tools for competitive players. Fairy's not just a new anti-dragon typing, it's also further utility for Poison and Steel types, and a check on the fighting types which got a huge usage boost in Gen V. I've seen new moves and abilities with serious competitive potential which directly address the current competitive circuit's focus on speed. And they did this without a noticeable power creep, statwise!

Design-wise, they had seriously "what" ones, and some forgettable ones, as well as some neat shit. They always do. Noibat looks like a sonic OC. We get it, it's two swords (which evolve into a haunted sword and shield with two different stances). There's a fucking stupid-looking cotton candy that basically gorges itself on whipped cream when it evolves. Yes, there's an Obligatory Pikachu Clone.

On the other hand, the wing pattern mechanic for Terrible Starter Bug is neat as heck. The starters are fire+psychic, water+dark, and grass+fighting instead of the retrodden Fire+Fighting Plus Two Monotypes. They can still find cool real animals to base Pokemon off, like the pistol shrimp Clauncher and the weedy see dragon Dragalge.

Mega Evos

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GameFreak's Intent

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Ok, so we could both argue until we're blue in the face about whether the mechanical changes are good or bad or whatever, but as game designers Game Freak definitely had an intent and a message they wanted to convey with this game, not just to upgrade their cash cow to 3D.

What struck me about XY was the stark contrast in tone from B2/W2, where you were trundling through a series of global happenings (although some people liked the Gym Leaders being portrayed as active leadership figures in their various cities, so shrug). Even the city is full of scenery masquerading as people, and you catch snatches of conversation and people avoid you as they traipse back and forth.

XY's hub city (Lumiose) contrasts starkly with Nimbasa in that sense. Trainer battles come and go, and you can listen in on some non-interactable people talking about cafes you haven't visited yet. It feels a lot more organic and alive than Nimbasa City did, even if it is a bitch to navigate. The game itself really makes the most of the lore they've built up over the years, and the region's cities are dotted with hotels in which Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Kanto natives make passing mention to their hometowns. Plaid and I were puzzling out for ages the city soundtrack a "composer" you could talk to was playing for us.

The game has loads of these little moments that give you a small sense of accomplishment for having discovered them. I guess some of that will fade as guides get released, but right now it harks back a lot to my RSE playthroughs. I suspect this is a game where people are going to go "oh did you talk to that one guy/see this one thing", and a lot of little easter eggs make you wonder "why is this here" and what kind of story is behind it. Not the plot-relevant stuff, just the things you find when you go talking to NPCs or exploring routes properly. The weird mix of Pokemon from across the gens really adds to that, and even though I'm familiar with most Pokemon and how they work on the competitive scene I still thought "woah hey, one of those" when I ran into it.

Game Freak wanted to make a game that made the most of the DS's connectivity, while not losing that whole "playground" aspect of having to talk to friends for help. You can trade Pokemon much more easily too, and even send each other "O-Powers" that boost the recipient's attack or prize money or capture rate for their next battle. They wanted to make a game that evoked that social aspect of Pokemon and seriously delivered on it. There are features at work too (provided you have an internet connection) that let you enjoy that social aspect even if you can't chat non-stop in an IRC room with people about it, with one-button trading and battles with "passersby" from all over the world. From that perspective, their simultaneous global launch was a great decision, which was also reflected in their ability to let you choose your language at the start of the game. They wanted to make a global game, and I think they really delivered on that.

I could write another fucking treatise on the themes and stuff that I thought GF did a solid job on, but that'd spoil a bunch of fun easter eggs for people and I doubt you'd be all that interested Doip

Plaid · 10-18-2013, 08:45 AM

(10-18-2013, 08:04 AM)Gnauga Wrote: »gotta say, poke-keyring looks like something outta Mayu Zane's Art of Domination over in the ol' MSPAFAs. What is it made out of? If it were bent, would it feel pain? It doesn't seem to have any joints. How does it grab new keys? How did those keys get within the ring in the first place? the question!!

It has a split at the bottom of it's ring. When its happy it spreads it's 'arms' and spins around with 2 keys on each, and when it faints it's arms separate and the keys drop off.

Klefki is probably my favourite new pokemon, also. It's really cute and surprisingly battle viable, at least in game.

Coldblooded · 10-18-2013, 10:35 AM

@TickTock: I can't speak for a lot of the games mentioned, but if you're looking for artsy-farstyness at all, or even just good gameplay in general, I would definitely recommend Shadow of the Colossus over L.A. Noire.

L.A. Noire has some decent moments here and there, but in my opinion it dragged itself out about 20 hours past its welcome. The story itself plays like the plot of a very long, very mediocre season of a TV Crime Procedural, like it has a different writer coming in for each new episode case. It's not an overly bad game by any means, but certainly not anything I would consider calling "artsy".

Please and the Metal Gear Solid series (especially number 3) were also both very enjoyable for what they were as well.

Jacquerel · 10-18-2013, 10:54 AM

If I played game 1 and game 6 back to back I think I'd know which the more enjoyable one was.
ditto game 5 and game 6.

Changes are incremental and not huge but it's clearly a superior game than it was in the past, and the core mechanics are not ones that become particularly less enjoyable with age.
The continued huge popularity of the competitive battle scene, even when the core battle mechanics are entirely divorced from any kind of framing, pretty much shows they don't need to make any particular sweeping changes in that area. They make little tuning and quality of life tweaks, and those little tweaks end up adding up to a big difference in feel and quality.

Besides when they do add new mechanics (like in-battle evolutions) they are heavily criticised! By the same people telling them to innovate more, often!

Not every generation of pokemon games is an improvement on previous ones, but this one by and large definitely was. It is a towering high point of the series.

**Schazer** · 10-18-2013, 11:35 AM

Nope, I'd agree that (nostalgia of Gen III put aside for a moment) IV and V weren't nearly as fun for me as III. HG/SS failed to correct some core issues in the original game, even with the additional features granted by Gen IV. I did feel pretty "blugh" after having completed Pearl, and didn't feel the same desire to comb over it like I did with Sapphire. The game was a slog.

Y, on the other hand, has been a vastly better game for me than my limited dip into White 2. Gripes about Pokemon designs aside (because you can't pick one questionable Pokemon then ignore all the legitimately cool shit) , the game itself is better. The mechanics are polished. You're given a lot of freedom to set your own challenges, and the way experience gain's been adjusted it's easy to try out completely different teams without extraneous grinding.

I'd hazard your "perception" of a single-player experience is faulty, chiefly because GF executed the transition to a properly social game extremely well. The game has a well-integrated "Player Search System" which can idle in the lower screen when exploring the overworld, which lets you invite friends and passerby for battles, trades, and to send them in-game boosters. Because you'll show up in other players' passerby lists too, you can play without DS friends provided you have net access. Having said that, the game isn't constantly pestering you to get online and interact with people, so if you want to strike it solo it's easy enough.

Is the game challenging? Not really. Is that a poor decision on Gamefreak's part? Not when they clearly state (through the group of four friends (a dancer (the superior choice in friend), a dex-filler, a girl who wants to meet cute Pokemon and make good memories, and your ostensible rival) who you bump into along your journey) that it's up to you to decide what success is, what goals are worthwhile.

The plot, as usual, is hecka stupid. It's a JRPG, not a Pultizer candidate. I don't think that's a fair basis for criticism in a game still aimed at kids. What I really appreciated out of Game Freak was this message that Pokemon are pretty ok, but their true merit lies in their power to bring people together.

We've gotten the friendship and trust speech way back when from Gen I, but it's refreshing that they focus more on the bonds between people rather than the bond between a trainer and their Pokemon. From a feature that lets you toss Pokemon into the web-ether and get a random trade back from a complete stranger, to a stream of randomised players from around the world with whom you can trade or battle - the focus is on people and what links them. Game Freak acknowledged that Pokemon is something of a common language, and made a game which celebrated that fact on multiple levels*.

I cleared the game a couple days ago and I'm still having fun running around chasing postgame content, catching things to trade with friends doing weirder runs. Sure, the 8 badges and E4 were a nice tour through some cool scenery, but I'm making my own challenges now trying to find a fucking Houndour for bigro.

*ask me how, if you're gonna trust me on this then that's cool but I can bog you down with examples too if you like

Jacquerel · 10-18-2013, 11:49 AM

On a completely un-pokemon related note

Please buy this game

Please?

MaxieSatan · 10-18-2013, 04:15 PM

(10-18-2013, 09:27 AM)Superfrequency Wrote: »Better than what I perceive to be the same single-player experience, yet again, with minor and incremental changes.

This is definitely a more valid criticism, but just speaking for myself, I'd say that X/Y put a lot of effort into actually changing things; it's probably the biggest paradigm shift since Gen II. Balance additions, actually making EV training accessible (which was big for me personally), character customization, and actually animated Pokemon* are all pretty big shifts imo.

I think it also tried to focus on shaking up the implicit conventions, though perhaps not as much; the whole "not using a fire/fighting starter this time" and giving you access to multiple starters, including a lot of side areas rather than only one or two before you beat the Elite Four, etc.

* this, along with 3D graphics, already existed in spinoffs but I feel it was a pretty big shift for the main-line games.

(10-18-2013, 09:27 AM)Superfrequency Wrote: »You're free to disagree with me, but it would better serve you to actually try to ascertain what my opinions are before attacking them.

If your argument isn't fundamentally based on the character designs, maybe don't support your argument almost solely on the character designs? Sorry if I don't know your cave weedle backstory.

(10-18-2013, 09:27 AM)Superfrequency Wrote: »There's nowhere for the series to go except further gimmickry like Mega-Evolutions.

You also never actually gave a reason for why you thought this, and since game mechanics are independent of individual Pokemon designs, I don't see how it's at all related to or supported by the rest of what you posted?

Nopad · 10-18-2013, 06:47 PM

In other news, Sonic: Lost World is getting bad reviews overall. Thoughts?

weirdee · 10-18-2013, 06:54 PM

bw2 is basically an expansion pack that adds a bunch of tiny things for returning players to make use in competitive battle, but doesn't add much in terms of actual story (even in terms of pokemon....stories), although it sure piles on the scenery porn lemme tell ya

so, with that in mind, it's probably more appropriate to use the first two games of gen 5 as the baseline comparison

fun fact of the daymon: in gen 6, a parent holding a destiny knot will pass down ALL OF ITS IVS to the child

BRPXQZME · 10-18-2013, 07:52 PM

(10-18-2013, 06:14 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »I would honestly not have a clue if that's present or not, since I haven't played Mass Effect/Deus Ex/Planescape, but I've never actually seen people talk about them on that level.

Yes, there is plenty along those lines for those three games in particular. You’re right, it isn’t common for people to talk about them; generally people are more interested in talking about what sets them apart in ways that you would have trouble doing in a non-interactive medium, if they’re talking intelligently at all.

What I personally got out of Mass Effect (I’ve only played the first two) is action-hero fun with a little bit harder sci-fi than the norm, but I mentioned it because people have done this sort of thing for that game (... of course, I have found some people argue that the ending fell down for them because it failed to remain consistent with the themes they saw coming up to it, and some other people argue that the ending worked for them because it was perfectly consistent with the themes they saw coming up to it. People proc things differently, who knew?).

(10-18-2013, 06:14 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »Even without knowing the endings, now that I think about it, their particular setups have more literary potential than the other zelda games.

I’d wager a couple of guesses why people bring these two up in particular:
1) They both pack a lot of stuff into a smaller form. Very little level space lies fallow in these two, which is harder to say about (for example) LttP or OoT. Everything is in a tight focus, so you’ll be more likely to make whatever kinds of mental connections you’re gonna make.
2) More so than the other entries, they feel like they’re about something. I get something of a tragic vibe from them, which is because... well, I can’t go further into that without Ruining The Plot, I think.

(10-18-2013, 06:14 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »Mother is something I definitely should have thought of. You saying that actually reminded me of OFF, which is one of the weirdest and most affecting games I've ever played. Also everyone should play OFF. I guess batshit absurdity is just my taste in jrpgs.

A couple of years ago on another forum, someone, distraught, noted that no JRPG had come out in the prior handful of years that did this, that, and the other (I forget what) which would be reasonable to expect out of a game in the genre and would make for a fairly good one if you had these things. I pointed out Barkley in jest, and unexpectedly, they pointed out (relieved) that the joke was technically correct and that they could now retract the point.

I’d always wanted to put an off-beat JRPG into the world, but I never came up with much in the way of something worthwhile.

(10-18-2013, 06:14 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »And I would agree that text/adventure games are also a goldmine as far as literary merit is concerned. I guess it's because, given a lack of gameplay elements, the designers spend more time thinking about constructing environment and story. That sounded like I am perpetuating the idiotic gameplay/story false debate but I swear I wasn't. My dream for video games is a day where the gameplay awesomeness of the innovative AAAs is combined with the narrative awesomeness of the cultiest indie games.

Hmm, I don’t think it’s necessarily about a lack of gameplay elements. There are plenty of gameplay elements text adventures can do that other games would struggle to be able to do.

Text has a number of advantages over other forms of game development because it’s so lightweight. It is pretty much the fastest way to get content into a game, and the since the player just rolls with it, you can be lax on all sorts of details that aren’t really important. According to accounts I’ve heard here and there, we’re in the middle of a quiet Interactive Fiction renaissance. But it seems the only ones that are popular enough that I’ve heard of them are pr0n.

For whatever it’s worth, the big players in the industry would also like to see that happen. There is a big emphasis nowadays on getting so much done in preproduction before sinking a lot of money into getting things polished. The desire of these bigger companies to make prototypes before starting a project or hash out mechanics before putting them into an existing game has contributed to the success of Unity. If you are looking for a job from one of them, I have it on reasonably good word that a good indie game is quite possibly the best thing to have in your résumé. So they do move slower, but on the other hand, most of them know it.

(10-18-2013, 06:14 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »and finally, I would like to open up Pandora's Box and ask
which final fantasies
are the best (and/or most pretentious)

Pandora’s Box is a challenge hack for Final Fantasy VI that has been in development for a number of years.

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MaxieSatan · 10-18-2013, 08:16 PM

(10-18-2013, 07:39 PM)Superfrequency Wrote: »I could sit here and argue this, but the fact is that I completely underestimated the amount and forcefulness of backlash I would receive from saying keyring Pokémon is dumb, you are all a lot more upset about what I had to say than I was, and I'm just not that invested in having a full-blown argument about it. I don't feel like there is anything for me to gain by participating when everyone has already decided what my opinions are, and that they are wrong. None of you are actually interested in what I think beyond being able to rebuff it the second you hear it...

Although it probably would have been obvious had I thought about it since the game just came out, I didn't realize I would receive such an explosively hostile reaction. It is not my aim to rain on anyone's parade. Cool it.

I think the issue is more that your tone was incredibly absolute and dismissive. If you had given a more even-handed and thoughtful criticism, I doubt it would have been such a big issue, but instead it felt to me like you were arbitrarily insulting something you weren't really informed about, which is Not Good Practice as a general rule.

You're not exactly being all that pleasant now, either; while being confrontational certainly isn't bad in and of itself, you really need to pay extra attention to the strength of your argument and why it matters in such a case.

It is also possibly worth noting that if you spend multiple paragraphs talking about how Not Upset you are, how you Aren't Interested In Arguing, and how Everyone's Getting Worked Up About Something Inconsequential, you are perhaps not presenting the message you intend to.

Quote:from saying keyring Pokémon is dumb

If by that you mean "saying an entire game contributed nothing of value to its franchise based on that single keyring, accusing it of plagiarism based on what is already a pretty obvious design, and getting upset when people question whether your opinion is actually founded" then I suppose you're right.

Jacquerel · 10-19-2013, 01:16 AM

I don't think we're the only people who weren't interested in reading what someone thinks

Solaris · 10-19-2013, 01:22 AM

Ff 4 has the first compelling story in the series and has decently complex characters at the cost of not giving you control of your party classes, 5 has a complex as hell job system and a weird story and is also the first to really play with the idea of multiple maps, 6 is the final snes game, has a great cast, a ton of secrets, and one of the best villains in final fantasy.

I havent played other ones but 7, 9, 10 and 10-2 are all more worth looking into than 8, which has a shit nonsense story, 11 which is an mmo, and 13 which is just... jesus christ

Jacquerel · 10-19-2013, 01:44 AM

And now you've claimed the moral high ground you were after by doing so.
If someone dismisses a post that has literally no mention of the pokemon in question as a response to "saying keyring Pokémon is dumb", makes irrelevant references to (complete, inaccurate guesses about) several people's emotional state and then throws up their hands and says "FINE! I GIVE UP FINE! YOU BULLIES! IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED!" I feel like I'm entitled to a bit of return snark.

especially as you continued arguing in that same post, pointing out that you did it doesn't make it less true, you couldn't even resist not actually backing down

but hey, "you win", this is my last post on the subject, don't worry about it

TickTickTockTock · 10-19-2013, 02:05 AM

(10-19-2013, 01:22 AM)Solaris Wrote: »Ff 4 has the first compelling story in the series and has decently complex characters at the cost of not giving you control of your party classes, 5 has a complex as hell job system and a weird story and is also the first to really play with the idea of multiple maps, 6 is the final snes game, has a great cast, a ton of secrets, and one of the best villains in final fantasy.

I lied, I actually played 5 as well.
I couldn't finish it though, because the difficulty started spiking like crazy and I hadn't Optimized The Jobs ™.
It was pretty forgettable overall, though. It was sure crazy, but more the "just makes no sense" kind than the "postmodern oneiric poetry" kind.
I guess I could look into ff4. It's on wiiware so no trouble to acquire.

General consensus from everyone I've talked to about this seems to be that VI was somewhat of a peak, though, so I may just pretend it was the only FF game.

ALSO, now that I've had time to think I'm gonna go ahead and post my absurd crank theory about video game writing.

SpoilerShow

MaxieSatan · 10-19-2013, 05:22 AM

(10-19-2013, 01:54 AM)Superfrequency Wrote: »"intellectually dishonest"

"not 'entitled' to be rude to anyone"

Am I being punk'd.

RE: JRPGs That Ain't Pokemon, I'm inclined to recommend the Dragon Quest series if only because it holds a particular place in my heart. I love the monster designs (well, most of them) and I feel like they tend to hit a decent mix of comedy and drama.

Of the ones I've played, I'd say VI has the best story, IX has the best gameplay, and VIII is good at both (and probably my favorite). Was not a fan of IV, since it offered basically no character customization and the plot was generally bland.

Rocket Slime is also worth playing, it is a game where you fight tanks and rubber-band-tackle people.

**Schazer** · 10-19-2013, 05:51 AM

Ok no more arguing about arguing or getting last words in, talk about your JRPGs now thank you.

BRPXQZME · 10-19-2013, 06:12 AM

(10-19-2013, 01:22 AM)Solaris Wrote: »8, which has a shit nonsense story, 11 which is an mmo

People should see for themselves. Personally, I would say that FFVIII is about as close to “Art” as the mainline series ever got (FFX is a close second), and that the story is remarkably good viewed from some angle other than “heroic adventure”. I grant that this is not a terribly popular opinion, but bleh bleh on popular opinions.

FFXI’s MMO-ness doesn’t really count against the story. It does mean you won’t see most of it unless you make the game a huge part of your life*. Or maybe a lot of it’s up on YouTube by now; I haven’t checked. Now, it’s a very grindy MMORPG that has largely failed to get out of its aging, often unfriendly design, but story-wise it’s more like the pacing is hurt (and all the bits of story you get from going around and pestering NPCs is rather like a single-player game).

* “Exploring Vana'diel is a thrilling experience. During your time here, you will be able to talk, join, and adventure with many other individuals in an experience that is unique to online games. That being said, we have no desire to see your real life suffer as a consequence. Don't forget your family, your friends, your school, or your work.”—one of the most ignored messages in gaming history

(10-19-2013, 02:05 AM)TickTickTockTock Wrote: »ALSO, now that I've had time to think I'm gonna go ahead and post my absurd crank theory about video game writing.

Certainly, games have less of what they call auteurism. But then they debate that that’s even a thing in film, so I’m sure it’s debatable in games, too. And with games there’s one big contributor to the story a designer has extremely limited control over: the player.

TickTickTockTock · 10-19-2013, 08:16 AM

(10-19-2013, 05:22 AM)MrGuy Wrote: »Rocket Slime is also worth playing, it is a game where you fight tanks and rubber-band-tackle people.

Rocket Slime is not a jrpg
it is also my single favorite game of all time by a solid margin

I'd have a great deal of trouble coming up with an angle to artistically interpret it, though
It's more "totally fucking awesome" than "bro so deep"

Poll: Videogames or videogame accesories? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
vidgajames	85.53%	65	85.53%
accesories	14.47%	11	14.47%
Total		76 vote(s)	100%