Tiny Chat People

Hey, there were at least two votes for "check status"!

Hey, there were at least two votes for "check status"!

prioritizing the wax conversation was the best idea for this update, you'll have other chances to

Wax leaning out of the box is a good panel

Oh, sure, I don't actually care about "Check: Status" that much. Good update was good.
I'm just nitpicking.

author confession: i switched computers a while back and i don't have photoshop on this computer (I use SAI for all my drawing) so i don't have a good way to edit text in images... I skipped doing the CHECK: STATUS because i didn't want to have to download a new free art program that i could change the text with...

Entirely valid reason, at least in my opinion.

If the effort we put into memes was put into progress, imagine what we could accomplish.

So, I honestly pray we can salvage this?
We should probably unite however we can. Wax said that they've seen other Collectives who have their shit together. We can't keep pulling stuff like 'pranks', ice gnome, the knife we just made...
And it's not like I can say any of this as "I'm innocent", seeing how I nearly sent in a command for us to try and cover up what went down with Prophet...
We need to figure out what our convictions are, and stand by them. We need to focus on what actions are best for our kitties, and how to get through this game, because their lives are on the line, and so is our's. Wax made it painfully clear that everyone is frustrated at wits end with our constant attempts to try and find a third option, and that there is no solution but making the choices already at hand.

extra spoilerShow

Hey so I'm fairly certain we should ally with Grind.
Signs point to that Rein is possible one of many options. Possibly all of the above. These things range from naive in a "everyone can be redeemed" when they can't, able to be tricked by a clever enough person. Or manipulative in a way that means A Lot Of Bad Stuff.
There are a lot of other ones, but while Grind seems like he can be rash, maybe even abrasive, but he's still logical and level-headed from what we've seen. He's even willing to be patient and have some hope, considering he didn't condemn us.
What does this mean if Grind believes it is better to kill those who would end up in Rein's care? It's mercy in Grind's eyes. Whether he are biased due to his convictions or not, I don't think Grind would be so willing to have people die in such a manner if there wasn't... something else.
I think this is further highlighted by that Rein doesn't seem to hold the same regard. It's very in control of what it says, and seem to have a mix of a customer service voice, and the voice of a boss that will make you happy to be working a dead-end job. It seems nice, but, it seemed more willing to go to war as "a means to an end", rather than believing it is the morally right thing to do.
So where does that leave us in who to ally, if we even can?
If Grind doesn't condemn us, I seriously think we should try to ally with Grind, and try to sway over Macaron. 4v2 is better than 3v3, or even 2v2v2 (Dear God, Let's Not on that one).

As an addendum, I kind of want to say my peace on the whole thing about the conflict between Grind and Rein. From what little I know, the following is true:
Grind believes that Spit, no matter what is done, will always be an active threat. He believes an execution is the right choice.
Rein believes that Spit, can be contained, and kept from harming others. It believes that Spit should serve a life sentence in prison.

The reason this is all in spoilers is because I've read enough things that qualify as Spoilers that lead me to this perspective. Spit is not redeemable, and remains very much an active threat if even for a second Rein slips up, or if Spit is able to obtain even more power.
While my beliefs trend to desiring a system where those that are a threat to others are contained, I make concessions that in extreme circumstances (there's a range of what this can be, but it trends to people who have no remorse and are actively working towards being able to kill again) an execution is necessary.
While I wish I could trust Rein as not being Bad, and also having a good idea with their plans to keep Spit in check....a permanent solution is needed.

Suffice to say, our best option is to salvage what we can and ally with Grind, Marzu, and Macaron.
Our actions have been shit, and that needs to change.

I seriously doubt Grind wants anything to do with us by now, and maybe joining team admin as the junior partner does us good. At least it would give us strong incentive to clean up our act (or be kicked for being too annoying).

I seriously doubt Grind wants anything to do with us by now, and maybe joining team admin as the junior partner does us good. At least it would give us strong incentive to clean up our act (or be kicked for being too annoying).

I mean, I agree that Grind probably doesn't want anything to do with us....
But I also feel that due to how patient Grind has been with us, and despite the sheer amount of frustration he's experienced he may still be willing to enter into an alliance. He seemed to understand that we tried to look for other options out of a desire to avert pain and suffering, and took the time to explain to us that not going to war would only enable Rein's tcp's to suffer worse fates should they survive this game.

I keep running this through my head, comparing the two sides of this conflict, and I think the phrase "the devil you know" applies, to an extent.
I think that Grind is less willing to express pleasantries and smooth things over than Rein, and what that means is that while Grind will likely chew us out openly he's still gonna be honest with us about that we fucked up as soon as possible.
There's a lot of floating variables about Rein, and I don't trust that.

If we have to go the Wax route we know it will at least be humbling. The issue still being that Wax joins the smallest team, and that means that we would have a 2v2v2.
The only advantage we have on that situation is that everyone is fighting a war on two fronts.
If we assume that Grind will go after Rein, and that Marzu will accompany him into battle, then we would be able to take advantage of it by assaulting Rein alongside them, or more sneakily, setting up traps at Grind's base.

The big issue here is that Prophet likely is on Grind's side. Not allying with Grind means we will likely have to kill Prophet. And even if we don't have to kill them, there will still be conflict that comes from besieging their second home, their only home.

two things:

a) i foresee prophet going rogue from grind in turn because the reason she originally left us, in her own words verbatim, was that they didn't want to be a soldier. (grind ended up being the worst possible choice for this disposition, who we only picked because that's who happened to be talking to us at the time.) so maybe that problem will work itself out.

b) why does nobody like or even remotely trust rein all of a sudden? is it just that the people who remain even considering going to war (and thus allying) as a possibility are all alike in viewpoint to warmonger grind? the last time we interacted we were tripping over ourselves wanting to ally with them. they have done exactly zilch that is in any way suspect that we've seen, all they are is calm and friendly and openly helpful, not exactly a high sin but i guess a disposition like that sets off alarm bells if you don't believe someone can just Actually Be Nice? meanwhile, grind gets the most charitable, trusting reading possible? i'm not trying to change minds or get my mind changed i'm just totally baffled as to what makes rein bad, at all, and i'd love to hear some answers

I still have a lot of hope for Rein and wished we could gather more info on this god drama™ we've been tossed in the middle of cause I feel like I'd side with Rein for this, but we goofed up and now have this to deal with.

If I had to pick between Rein and Grind at the moment I'd pick Grind only cause we know what we're getting into and what's going down and that's our best chance sadly. Even if I currently don't fully agree with Grind, but maybe more info would change that. Else I'd pick Rein unless Rein was doing something super messed up.

Honestly I'm on side "Lets just go all in and be Wax's partner." Cause if we're going to die we're going to die in style.

Also I feel like Wax being on a team that's not ours is going to lead to badness as Wax seems super strong.

Also it works well with that "We don't fully agree with both sides and want to attempt to do something else." thing we got going on.

why does nobody like or even remotely trust rein all of a sudden? is it just that the people who remain even considering going to war (and thus allying) as a possibility are all alike in viewpoint to warmonger grind?

I get the feeling that part of it is just that if one person continues saying something loudly enough people might start to think they actually have a point.
The only reasons we have to distrust Rein right now is that Grind doesn't like them, they think that Spit shouldn't be executed (someone who isn't even in this game and we have never met), and they've been very nice.

I wouldn't say right now that we can definitely trust Rein but I absolutely wouldn't say we can trust Grind either.
If we want to ally with someone who isn't Wax (who automatically joins the smallest side) then someone whose domain is control surely wouldn't seem like a bad idea! It certainly makes more sense than a god of justice (which we already are) who thinks we are completely incompetent.


But I also still insist that we shouldn't dedicate ourselves to a side until we've seen what other people's cats are up to.
We've spent so so so much time on inter-god relationships, which are important if you want to win a game, but I feel like that was actually a mistake if we want to be a worthwhile god.

If all we are good for is politicking with other deities and using our followers are game chips then frankly we should just let Wax fail us out of existence right now. What should matter to us is TCPs, not other deities, and we have absoutely no idea how any of them are being treated (which is something we should have made a priority much earlier so we could learn by example) and that surely should be a key piece of information in figuring out who our friends should be.

Anyone can claim to be totally into the same things as we are. We arbitrarily decided that we were the god of justice, after all. It doesn't mean they are actually embodying them!
Seeing how other tcps live should be vital to making our decisions on who to make friends with, and as that will take a long time it probably means Wax will have to suffer alongside us. Sorry buddy!

We are awful diplomats and have spoiled the pot with regards to most of the other deities, but it's possible that our tcps are better than us and may prove useful diplomats to other people's cats.
Winning might be dependent on making an alliance of all players, and it's quite likely that we are going to have to fight at some point because not all gods are going to want to be our friends and not all cats our going to want to be our cats friends, but we should avoid that for as long as humanely possible, find out who is treating their followers best and why, and the absolute best case scenario would be to convince other people's cats that fighting isn't their only option.

We've pretty firmly established that they are people, so they shouldn't be tools for our proxy war game even if it means we'll probably die.
And that includes everyone else's tcps, not just ours.
Maybe they could join our side or maybe they could go rogue, frankly as long as they aren't going to war for the purposes of a video game it's all good to me.

If we've decided that we're a god of justice, and we will compromise our principles and support an unjust war in order to live, then we shouldn't exist in the first place.

why does nobody like or even remotely trust rein all of a sudden? is it just that the people who remain even considering going to war (and thus allying) as a possibility are all alike in viewpoint to warmonger grind?

I support the death sentence for murderers.

the last time we interacted we were tripping over ourselves wanting to ally with them.

And yet ultimately decided not to. Is there a reason to confront them directly? To make ourselves appear to be an enemy rather than a potential ally? It closes off options. It would be almost as inefficient as calling Macaron and then immediately asking how to kill their cats.

I'm kind of wondering what led to your sudden shift, actually. You were all gung ho for confrontation and now you want to 'be Sweden'.

they have done exactly zilch that is in any way suspect that we've seen, all they are is calm and friendly and openly helpful, not exactly a high sin but i guess a disposition like that sets off alarm bells if you don't believe someone can just Actually Be Nice?

I've played enough SMT to know you never trust the pearly-white-blank-faced god of order. Particularly when another god of order finds them reprehensible.

meanwhile, grind gets the most charitable, trusting reading possible?

Well that's obvious, it's because he's gorgeous.

But I also still insist that we shouldn't dedicate ourselves to a side until we've seen what other people's cats are up to.
We've spent so so so much time on inter-god relationships, which are important if you want to win a game, but I feel like that was actually a mistake if we want to be a worthwhile god.

This was never a bad idea. But the knife may have left us so distrusted this is no longer a safe idea. If we are viewed as a threat, and somebody decides to take us out, our cats riding in on a blimp is the ideal time to deal a massive blow.

For someone who claims to care so much about the cats, you really don't see how this endangers them?

Going back to my point: winning is not necessarily what is best for the cats. Protecting them and ensuring they live to see Paradise would be a less selfish choice than sending them to risk themselves for some ideal or another. You are doing no less than sending them into danger in service of a different ideal.

It certainly makes more sense than a god of justice (which we already are) who thinks we are completely incompetent.

He's not wrong. And our actions have been anything but just. Stop using it as an argument like saying 'we are justice' justifies whatever you do. It didn't justify Kira either.

I agree that sending the cats all over the place in a blimp is suddenly a more dangerous plan then before and that maybe we should reconsider.
I also agree that we need more information about the other TCPs in the game. How they've been treated will tell us a lot, and so will what their types are. I don't know how we can find that out short of sending our TCPs to meet them.

I don't agree with death penalties for anyone, even murderers. But that's neither here nor there.

We are justice definitely doesn't justify what we do, I've never tried to say that it does. I've also at no point been in support of us trying to win the game.
It means that we should act the part, which is to prevent this bullshit, for everyone and not just our cats.

Sending them flying around will probably be at least a little bit dangerous, but so would keeping them at home.
They're going to get into danger eventually. They should get into danger trying to spread justice, by finding out what the conditions of other cats are and preventing further injustice, instead of from staying at home and bunkering up pointlessly.

If our tcps are going to be in danger, which they are regardless of what we do, it should be for a cause.
Our cause should be to improve the situation as much as possible for the TCPs, all of them, because otherwise we're useless as a god.
Doing that involves sending ours on a trip, because that's our only way of finding out what is going on and our only way of influencing any area that is outside our own planet.

If we're just going to keep them at home and build big walls, we're essentially telling people "come and kill them". They'd have to, in order to finish this game session.
If you want to protect our cats (and only ours), the quickest and most merciful way would be to just use that handy knife we made, killing us and making them all instantly into rogue neutrals. The effect would be exactly the same.

I think we can do better than that.

why does nobody like or even remotely trust rein all of a sudden? is it just that the people who remain even considering going to war (and thus allying) as a possibility are all alike in viewpoint to warmonger grind?

I support the death sentence for murderers.

see, if we were fighting spit directly, and we knew 100% no hearsay that spit was the incarnation of pure evil, adolf hitler mixed with a psychotic spree killer mixed with lucifer devil satan, you could have a point. but the problem is even if they are that, we wouldn't be going to war with them directly. the war proposed utterly fails to address the actual problem; no matter who wins or loses spit themselves will be fine. it's not world war 2, it's world war 1.



if you've noticed a shift in my tone, good, i try. basically, for the first half of the adventure i was trying to subvert the pastel safety of the early goings with the worst, meanest, most absurd suggestions i could possibly think of. i still think it's really funny when things go wrong. but i grew to love prophet very quickly, and what happened to them really fucked me up and i still feel (despite what i've been told) personally responsible for things going so sour for them. ever since, i try to keep my jokes pretty harmless and back my friends up on ideas i think are sincerely good. i'd actually say it's been a bit of a life lesson for me in responsibility

edit: (knife aside. i got caught up in the moment i guess. it's still funny)

We are justice definitely doesn't justify what we do, I've never tried to say that it does. I've also at no point been in support of us trying to win the game.
It means that we should act the part, which is to prevent this bullshit, for everyone and not just our cats.

Sending them flying around will probably be at least a little bit dangerous, but so would keeping them at home.
They're going to get into danger eventually. They should get into danger trying to spread justice, by finding out what the conditions of other cats are and preventing further injustice, instead of from staying at home and bunkering up pointlessly.

I agree with you for the most part in terms of our directive, but your tactics have left much to be desired considering where we are now.

If we're just going to keep them at home and build big walls, we're essentially telling people "come and kill them". They'd have to, in order to finish this game session.
If you want to protect our cats (and only ours), the quickest and most merciful way would be to just use that handy knife we made, killing us and making them all instantly into rogue neutrals. The effect would be exactly the same.

I think we can do better than that.

Immediately committing seppuku would make a strong statement, but it would have further side effects you may not see coming and would have no way to counter unless we make preparations first.

Firstly, Wax would no longer have somebody to ally with between two equal teams of two, and we don't know how that would influence things.

Secondly, it would remove any capacity we may have to protect the cats using our Create and other commands.

Thirdly, they would make excellent hostages to turn one of their friends into a double agent, if any of the other players have fewer scruples than they would appear to.

Fourth, they may decide to take things into their own hands and get themselves into danger trying to do the right thing. They are beings with free will after all, and I doubt they will just sit there at home after their creator commits suicide.

I don't know how we can find that out short of sending our TCPs to meet them.

The remote control spy robot I created for situations where sending our TCPs to gather information might be risky?

Granted, giving it an appearance that doesn't scream 'Frog-Crimes made this' would have been better, but I expected it to be used for scouting and mapping rather than covert ops. Hindsight.

see, if we were fighting spit directly, and we knew 100% no hearsay that spit was the incarnation of pure evil, adolf hitler mixed with a psychotic spree killer mixed with lucifer devil satan, you could have a point. but the problem is even if they are that, we wouldn't be going to war with them directly. the war proposed utterly fails to address the actual problem; no matter who wins or loses spit themselves will be fine. it's not world war 2, it's world war 1.

I cannot think of a reasonable excuse to eat somebody. If you have an alternative narrative I'm willing to hear it.

if you've noticed a shift in my tone, good, i try. basically, for the first half of the adventure i was trying to subvert the pastel safety of the early goings with the worst, meanest, most absurd suggestions i could possibly think of. i still think it's really funny when things go wrong. but i grew to love prophet very quickly, and what happened to them really fucked me up and i still feel (despite what i've been told) personally responsible for things going so sour for them. ever since, i try to keep my jokes pretty harmless and back my friends up on ideas i think are sincerely good. i'd actually say it's been a bit of a life lesson for me in responsibility

edit: (knife aside. i got caught up in the moment i guess. it's still funny)

I see. So you are loyal to prophet, and expect prophet to turn against Grind due to his aggressive foreign policy. Thus you are against allying with Grind, in anticipation that prophet will seek refuge with somebody else.

I can understand that. It's a viable reason not to ally with Grind.

The only reason we need to protect the cats is that they're on our team, if they weren't then the danger to them would be much less.
If we weren't in the picture, they'd be able to join the team of a different god, which to be frank would probably be Grind because that's where their other friend already is, this would make the grind-alliance's forces much greater than their opposition's, which doesn't mean they'd definitely win but give them a much greater chance than they have under us.
After this they might enter the fighting on behalf of someone else and we couldn't stop it, but that's also likely to happen if we continue to personally protect them anyway.

If we're going to stay alive, which we should for the meta reason of "it would be a shit way to end the story" if nothing else, then we should justify our existence.
We can make things better, so we should. We should care about the well being of all of the cats, not just the ones that happen to be ones we made.
Averting any cat from being harmed through avoidable conflict is very difficult to the point of probably being impossible, undermining the authority of the other gods who would intentionally send them to die and harm others in battle for reasons that do not materially affect the cats at all by using our cats as diplomats is a real moon shot plan, but it serves a means good enough to justify our existence.

If they got themselves in danger trying to do the right thing after we were gone then frankly, I'd count that as a success.
What's the point of us otherwise?

I'm still not gonna make commands since I've fucked up enough, but I'm gonna drop my two cents on this situation.

We could, I think, turn this into a 4V2.
Marzu doesn't want to team up with Rein because he unsettles him. But if we can team up with Macaron and Rein, Wax would have to join Grind's team. And Wax seems to be a rather unpleasant person. Not just because of how he acted towards us, but also because Macaron didn't want him to enter the game. With luck Marzu might be willing to team up with Rein just to avoid being stuck with Wax.