-=- Crooks Hollow III Mafia -=- Day Five? (3/21)

so yeah I was going to vote garuru for the blatant wagon-jump but then your post is just sucking up to the people on your wagon while somehow simultaneously trying to paint both garuru and seedy as scum?

e: wow did I misread that but you painting both as coaligned probably town off of this feels weird too?

re: garuru I would've been like 'yeah sure lynch it' (and hey we'll get back to that) but

So that begs the question: who would prefer it on? Off of these little wagons, I've got some reads now.
Mathgirl (4): Fragowump, 0_o, Seedy, Garuru

Wait those first two are random votes. That's not really a wagon at all... and Seedy and Garuru backed up thier votes nicely. I'd pair them as coaligned, but more likely than not, coaligned town.

what de heck

same deal as pala here their votes had basically no backup other than "her posts feel sort of off" and they certainly didn't back it up with hard evidence either (that was me tyvm). so why are you saying they did? The lack of confidence is possibly just a lack of confidence but c'mon, stand up for yourself! Because it's scum that don't want to pick fights n' fly under the radar, not town.

also your "hey these guys might be coaligned ALSO COINCIDENTALLY I'll vote this guy (who I just mentioned as possible scum with another guy who I paired with yet another player as possible scum) as a lurker lynch" which okay yeah I suppose Tea hasn't made any posts but I think that's him more literally forgetting he's in this game than any sort of scum lurking. Then again I know that he's been sort of RL-busy lately so that might be meta-bias creeping in on my side

ANYWAY

someone remind yewchung he's playing in this because yewchung being this quiet can only mean he's forgotten he's in it. I refuse to believe Yewchung could possibly lurk.


finally Vote: garuru for his remarkably strange logical leap from "Ethically speaking, we should just no lynch... but that doesn't sit right with me [so I will dismiss ethical play here]" to "a lurker lynch feels really wrong" to "well I guess we just lynch this person that's stuck out and actually played the game then".

yeah ok
Vote: mathgirl

Day has been extended by 48 hours (for a total of 7 days). The dayphase from now on will be six days instead of five.

ebwop: gonna Vote: Tea because he hasn't posted yet.

HOWDY FOLKS

Sorry! I wasn't ignoring this game on purpose, i just hadnt realised it had started. My bad.

Anyways, upon rereading the game I am pretty much happier to lynch two people than any other people@

1) Mathgirl. People have already stated the reasons they wanna lynch her, but even more than that:

I was also trying to establish relationships between players because aaugh no one is relating themselves to people.

I highly disagreee with this statement. Mathy, whilst only slightly scummy, is the person i feel has the most connections to other people in this game at the moment. Her flipping scum will be amazing in terms of who it clears and who it casts into a dark light. Her flipping town will be a lot less good, admittedly, but it will still make a few question marks look townier. However, she happens to NOT be my preferred lynch, despite being the most informative (I've never really liked lynching people for the sole sake of information, but eh. On that note, if i were a cop, I'd cop mathy).


2) TehPilot - He has 6 posts, and i'd invite you all to go read 'em.

The first four are pretty empty, fluff-esque posts (the 3rd of which i woulda pseudo-real voted him out of RVS (you know, the post-RVS stage where you throw shit to see what sticks)).

The 5th is a either an attempt at getting out of RVS (i dont think it was) OR it was an attempt to look like he was doing things without actually doing them (i think it was - especially as it was a question without providing an answer).

And i cannot shake the feeling that the 6th is a case of "...shit, people are actually starting to do things, we [being the scumteam] were better off in RVS. Quick, better nip this conversation in the bud..." - especially as he still didn't post any actually game related things.

And he hasn't posted since (which has been when people started doing things)! Admittedly, the latter could really easily be a case of "busy" or "just not got round to it yet", but hey, its a minor thing, im much more interested in lynching him for the other reasons. He's scummier than mathy, but mathy's lynch is more informative. I'd rather lynch the scummier, as of now.

EBWOP: Whoops, forgot to Vote: TehPilot

(Wow okay this was longer than I thought it would be sorry). Really going to have to break this habit of lurking and actually say things in not-walls)
First odd post: 108 -- He calls out Frag for making a 'not-RVS vote', and although I saw it, there are two things that are iffy to me. 1, After thinking about it a little, I was pretty sure it was sarcasm, and 2, Granola doesn't mention what's weird about it until now, despite obviously have seen the thread. Yes, it could have been trying to get us out of RVS, but I'm pretty sure that it was kind of obvious that we'd wanted to get out of RVS at the time of Frag's vote as well. Thus, lynch candidate/scumpoints/you should probably justify this/etc.

Second: I really don't agree with lynching Math. I definitely feel like she's been trying to get us out of RVS, even if she hasn't done it amazingly and perfectly. I don't have as much of a problem with 119 as everyone else seems to, but that's because see where she's coming from I feel like she can and will justify it.

Third: Dini's kind of freaking me out this game? Let's see...
(Kind of long)

SpoilerShow

116 -- First, "Speedlynches are bad but we should really lynch someone", which is fine. Solaris stuff was a joke and shouldn't be considered. Then it's "Yeah Math's been weird, but not weird enough for me to want to lynch usually BUT I guess we're not usual anymore", and you would usually expect the next words to be "vote: Math" except they're not. Yes, this is justified later, but I don't quite buy it. Next, "Killing lurkers is bad but lynching active people because they're a little weird is worse." Sure, but then he votes to lynch Yew, because he's lurking, and then didn't mention Tea, who hadn't posted in the game at all. He then gives them both a pass in his next post, 126, which I also don't like, because Dini's building a lot of cases against people(read: Math) and then putting his vote on someone else. This also happens in 117, to a lesser extent.

(I'm also not entirely sure why you're voting garuru. You say it's a logical fallacy but I'm really confused how, because I think it's just fine?)

tl;dr: it feels like he's stretching to get someone lynched, doesn't care who (reinforced by the garuru vote), and the posts just feel contradictory.

Kane: If your vote wasn't random, then... Explain? Your reason seemed really joke-y, in your votepost, mainly because Math's statement felt joke-y, which you then kind of built on. Voting: 0_o, because this was basically the only thing he's really done of value, despite having the most posts of the game. I would like an explanation, as well as... Actually anything related to the game :/

(Someone tell me if I'm just being totally and completely off and weird and random and wrong)

Oh and Tea posted. I like that post.

Well that link goes to another thread entirely but I'm pretty sure that first bit was directed at me. If Frag's post was sarcastic, I certainly misread it. To me it definitely looked like someone jumping out of RVS with zero reasoning. And while it did look weird to me first time I saw it, I try not to make a habit of changing my vote immediately after a previous vote (plus I was having fun during the flavor discussion, plus plus I've been a little busy IRL so low post count here)

That said, Tea's post is excellent and I'd be more than happy to show my support for the Pilot wagon if my previous vote was a misunderstanding. Unvote. Vote: TehPilot

I am not happy with Tea's post actually?

I mean he focuses on Pilot (though it was alright stuff considering we're just out of RVS) but there's more solid crit against Mathgirl and Garuru and he kind of ignores it (which you can't really do if you're trying to push a brand new, alternate wagon).

He does have some stuff on Mathgirl but his new reason is absolutely horrid. Tea, I want you to list these connections because the only one I can see is her and Garu being antialigned - and that sticks if she's town too. Nothing else. You also try to sneak in a little bit of a 'cop check her' thing in and waffle on her being an infolynch.

This could be because I'm seeing a you/Garuru thing going on but still. Putting it out there.

That being said you've posted and it's a lot more (and therefore better) then most people have so I'm going to swap to a Vote: Garuru

Tea, I want you to list these connections

No.

Oh we're playing this game.

If you can't list them they don't exist and you know it (I think we've had this discussion several times).

Third: Dini's kind of freaking me out this game? Let's see...

Game was pretty dead, got posty to make things happen. Lemme see if I can't address some of your stuff though.

Then it's "Yeah Math's been weird, but not weird enough for me to want to lynch usually BUT I guess we're not usual anymore", and you would usually expect the next words to be "vote: Math" except they're not.

thing is that's nowhere near weird enough for me to condone a lynch normally? Guess we're not in normal country anymore so HEY GUYS PREPARE TO BE JUDGED FOR YOUR ONE-SIX TOTAL RVS POSTS

Note the big sarcastic all-caps response to the idea of lynching someone for just feeling sort of off. I've never been okay with math lynch!

Next, "Killing lurkers is bad but lynching active people because they're a little weird is worse." Sure, but then he votes to lynch Yew, because he's lurking, and then didn't mention Tea, who hadn't posted in the game at all.

I'd expect Tea to forget he's in a game. Knowing Yewchung from MSPA I am rather surprised he missed a game starting.

He then gives them both a pass in his next post, 126, which I also don't like, because Dini's building a lot of cases against people(read: Math) and then putting his vote on someone else. This also happens in 117, to a lesser extent.

What case have I built against Math I've pointed out why she's been weird, yes? But that's me elucidating what other people are going "oh you're weird" over, not going "these are the reason why math is scum". Because I am not really of that opinion at all!

(I'm also not entirely sure why you're voting garuru. You say it's a logical fallacy but I'm really confused how, because I think it's just fine?)

He says quite literally that he does not agree with basing this lynch (or rather a no lynch) off of ethical play considerations. Then he says he doesn't want to lynch a lurker because it feels wrong, which is an ethical consideration. Connect the dots~


and yeah while TehPilot has posted 6 times and pretty much all of his posts haven't had content in them he uh also hasn't posted since before the end of RVS/suivig discussion which means why the heck /would/ his posts have any content in them. You could criticize anyone who hasn't posted since that time like this.

Would like to note pretty much all your criticisms of TehPilot work equally well on Mathgirl? Your scum read on Pilot rests on your point that his 5th post is 'doing something that looks like getting out of RVS while doing nothing' which applies equally to Mathie's CDV and his 6th being 'I guess that wraps up suivig discussion' where mathie did the exact same thing two posts earlier.

and I don't even consider that very scummy considering the fact that they were right and we /were/ pretty much done with suivig discussion? Sure it's a bit off but it's certainly not enough to give me a scumread on either of them.

my beef with garuru OTOH is still a thing.

kane going 'my vote wasn't random' iiiis a thing too I will give that to seastorm. ~You seem to have much more on me though sea so why aren't you voting me instead~

Tea/Pala fighting over inanities nothing new to see here

[quote='Mirdini' pid='27935' dateline='1366450167']Alternatively yeah lynching Tea or Yew for not having votes down yet seems reasonable?[quote]

Oh hey look I did mention tea anyway

wonk

I don't know I wouldn't consider it complete inanities?

I mean yeah the whole info debate has happened before (as I pointed out) but right now it kind of feels like Tea's just bringing it up to help try to show why Mathgirl is the second best lynch (with works with my Garu/Tea theory right now).

Alternatively yeah lynching Tea or Yew for not having votes down yet seems reasonable?

*grumbles about lack of quick editing*

Vote Mathgirl for killing conversation.

This wasn't random? Suddenly this vote really looks odd to me. I don't know anyone's experiences with mafia after I quit way back (I don't know who's new to mafia and who's not), but this seems kind of counterproductive, to vote a player who tried to end RVS (no matter how the attempt actually went).

I was going to unvote Mathgirl in light of the day extension and the fact that the ball is rolling now, but her suck-up post was just kinda scummy. I think other people said enough about it though. Painting every single person as town very rarely ever contributes much.

Dini seems kind of bleh (not town not scum) to me honestly, which probably means a lot, considering he normally plays strongly. On the other hand, meta-based reads are rarely ever accurate or even viable, so I'll just leave it as a light suspicion.

re: Tea, cool, he's back. I honestly don't feel that much against an infolynch, though. It's Day 1, we don't have much info to go off of, so it doesn't really seem as bad as you make it out to be. But, /just/ for information is not a good reason, like you said, yes. The thing is, there was a bit going around on Mathgirl, so you basically just ignored that. (after looking again) Okay, you didn't, but you only really mentioned other people's reads, then said your infolynching reason was more important than them, then you dismissed that very same reason. This does not sound good to me.

I don't really have a problem with the TehPilot lynch though. I just don't really see it. Then again, I did kind of feel a little bit weirded out by his latest post, which was a definitive "Okay, that wraps up suivig discussion," then prodding lurkers. I just can't really explain it, but the tone feels ... off. Like, trying too hard to look like a town leader, maybe.

So... Math, Tea, then Pilot are my top scumreads right now, in that order.

Oh, and on Dini's vote:

finally Vote: garuru for his remarkably strange logical leap from "Ethically speaking, we should just no lynch... but that doesn't sit right with me [so I will dismiss ethical play here]" to "a lurker lynch feels really wrong" to "well I guess we just lynch this person that's stuck out and actually played the game then".

I think I may have been misleading. When I said "ethical decision" I meant, like, the morally right thing to do, whether or not it's actually best to do, gameplay wise. So, no lynching is "polite" but gets us nowhere. On the other hand, a lurker lynch, I just didn't really feel right with. Normally, I would, but this game had a remarkably long RVS. It would make sense to me that some people would not want to talk unless they had something to contribute, and there was nothing going on at the time. At the time of my comment, new things were only barely starting up, so there wasn't really a strong separation from lurkers and others. Heck, a lot of people had already posted only once, for RVS. That makes them no different from someone who didn't post in RVS.

That's why I didn't feel right with a lurker lynch, because they weren't even lurkers, just people who didn't participate in RVS. Last I checked, I didn't think that /everybody/ had to participate. So, yeah I much prefer voting people who has at least spoken up, because they are the only people I can read!

Pala Mathgirl has talked about a lot of people and a lot of people have talked about Mathgirl

I think it's pretty safe for Tea to say she has the most ~connections~ in the game right now

whether that actually means jack with regards to lynching her or anyone else is a different debate entirely than the one you were starting out on <:3

EBWOP: I'll admit that seastorm is kind of throwing me off but her stuff with you kind of looks like stream of conciousness? Like she was actually just going over your post and typing out whatever comes to mind. Her stuff with Kane felt more like actual accusations.

Connections vs. 'would give us lots of info on scum/town' are two very different things Mirdini and he kind of said both? I mean yeah she has connections but that's not what I was bringing up.

Yay Garuru postage. A pretty decent response to the honestly rather semantic thing I was poking you over. Coooooool. Unvote

Still sorta don't like your position re: scumreads being Math/Tea/Pilot? Or are you saying that list is "if Mathie is town then I'd go after tea, and if both were town I'd go after tehpilot". Because tea calling out two of his scumbuddies in his first post feels raaaaaaaaaather unlikely to me.

To the one person I haven't addressed yet who's talked hey granola do you have any opinions of your own on the Mathgirl situation or are you just going to sit around and hop on wagons as it pleases ya?

Going to let more people check in and give 'pinions before I post some more, don't really feel like just drowning the thread right over nitpicking right now (anymore at least!)

Oh, no no, I was just saying they're my list of possible scum reads in order. Like, from most scummiest to least, without whether they're teammates in question.

To the one person I haven't addressed yet who's talked hey granola do you have any opinions of your own on the Mathgirl situation or are you just going to sit around and hop on wagons as it pleases ya?

Fuck yeah bandwagons! But no, Mathgirl's clean with me. This game was having a slow time starting up and she tried getting the conversation going, despite the lynch-drawing way she did it. Even if she starts acting super scummy I'd still say keep her around for now.

Current lynch policy: Don't murder the active players.

Blahblahblah MG isn't that bad. Blahblahblah.

Pilot is a bad lynch too though. And I think Tea's thing on him was terrible. It's a lot of assigning sinister motives to things with barely any content in a part of the game where there was nothing happening. You admit there are four fluff posts, a fifth that is only maybe bad. The 6th is where the crux of your argument lies.

Tea. How are you riled up about 99 from Pilot, but you're ok with MG in 97?

I would be way more upset with Tea if it didn't feel like he was deliberately trying to get people riled up (especially with 134) to see what shakes loose.

Speaking of things shaking loose from a terrible lynch train start.

Granolaman.

So far all you've had is a weird Frago vote in 108. A quick backtracking in 132 where you leap on board the PilotTrain as hard as you can. 146 is almost just a direct parrot of what other people (like.... TEA!) have said, but it comes with the bonus of making it clear that he won't be trying to piss off any active players so we shouldn't even be expecting any kind of comments on that front.

Lynch: Granolaman

Oh we're playing this game.

If you can't list them they don't exist and you know it (I think we've had this discussion several times).

No.

(Ok, to be slightly less annoying, i will amend this to "not yet")

with works with my Garu/Tea theory right now

Explain.

Connections vs. 'would give us lots of info on scum/town' are two very different things Mirdini and he kind of said both? I mean yeah she has connections but that's not what I was bringing up.

They are the exact same thing.

Tea. How are you riled up about 99 from Pilot, but you're ok with MG in 97?

I never said i was ok with Mathy??? That's, like, the complete opposite of what i said in fact. I feel like people are ignoring someone who should be at least as suspicious as mathy, and from my PoV, slightly more suspicious, even.

Would like to note pretty much all your criticisms of TehPilot work equally well on Mathgirl? Your scum read on Pilot rests on your point that his 5th post is 'doing something that looks like getting out of RVS while doing nothing' which applies equally to Mathie's CDV and his 6th being 'I guess that wraps up suivig discussion' where mathie did the exact same thing two posts earlier.

This is true, but my feels are stronger towards Pilot. Part of it is the fact that people pounced on Mathy but didn't pounce on pilot. Another part of it is that Pilot kinda just read as a lot less genuine to me.

So far all you've had is a weird Frago vote in 108. A quick backtracking in 132 where you leap on board the PilotTrain as hard as you can. 146 is almost just a direct parrot of what other people (like.... TEA!) have said, but it comes with the bonus of making it clear that he won't be trying to piss off any active players so we shouldn't even be expecting any kind of comments on that front.

Lynch: Granolaman

146 is not a parroting at all. In fact, I am actually defending Mathgirl's right to make weird posts whereas everyone else is saying "wow Math sure looks like a good back-up lynch." Her "crime" is trying to keep this game from stagnating, and I sure as hell ain't gonna let that be punished. If we start killing players for getting the game rolling, what happens the next time things slow down? (There's probably something to be said about classical conditioning in here but I never paid much attention in psych class.) Anyways that's why MG gets my defense. If she truly gets scummier, let the vigilantes take care of her.

Now, Boogeyman.

All you've had this game is a weird vote on me with shoddy reasoning (obviously I'm bandwagoning deal with it) and an attempt to discredit my opinions just because they coincide and/or were influenced by others. So tell me more about your connection with TehPilot.

Kane: If your vote wasn't random, then... Explain? Your reason seemed really joke-y, in your votepost, mainly because Math's statement felt joke-y, which you then kind of built on. Voting: 0_o, because this was basically the only thing he's really done of value, despite having the most posts of the game. I would like an explanation, as well as... Actually anything related to the game :/

Well, clearly it wasn’t random because I did state a reason, regardless of how nebulous my ideas on Mathgirl were at that point. I don’t think you’re using “random” correctly. Random would be like my first vote on Solaris, where I was just, well, randomly voting.
I don’t know how everyone generally leaves RVS cause I haven’t played very many mafia games, but I thought it should be a natural kind of shift, not like a “ok guys, now we have to leave, let’s leave RVS now come on” and then doing of all things, a CDV to help out. That kind of talk is solely promoting your own towniness, imo, but let me know what you all think please.

Vote Mathgirl for killing conversation.

This wasn't random? Suddenly this vote really looks odd to me. I don't know anyone's experiences with mafia after I quit way back (I don't know who's new to mafia and who's not), but this seems kind of counterproductive, to vote a player who tried to end RVS (no matter how the attempt actually went).

I was going to unvote Mathgirl in light of the day extension and the fact that the ball is rolling now, but her suck-up post was just kinda scummy. I think other people said enough about it though. Painting every single person as town very rarely ever contributes much.

We (the town) are all trying to end RVS. I thought that might best be done to participate in the current game mechanics conversation and let that segue/branch out into a “real” conversation afterwards.