RE: We chat about videogames and videogame accessories.
12-09-2013, 09:30 AM
Procedural generation can be really cool, but I am dead certain it is only good in games as a means to an end. Dwarf Fortress uses procedural generation to create a world ripe for emergent behavior. Procedural generation is often mistaken for having emergent behavior because some successful games have both, and they complement each other pretty well. The truth is, it’s hard to algorithmically guarantee that outputs are interesting game-wise without having those things predetermined somewhere. So procedural content generation will remain a mere tool in the game design shed, at least for now. Computers have no conception nor model of human boredom, and level/gameplay designers have no intention of making their field unemployable.
Just the other day on another forum, I wrote a hamfisted post that touched on how The Elder Scrolls has always had elements of getting the procedural/emergent stuff and gets so close, but never quite got it all down. I doubt it’s for a lack of trying, mind you. I will say that all the random anonymous people from the highway robbery / Radiant quest / pre-Morrowind giant cities always stick out as horrifyingly meaningless next to the named ones and the casual conversations between NPCs in Oblivion/Skyrim come off as contrived because almost nobody talks to each other....
I have a friend who raves to no end about the community-pak’d version of STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl because it does this so well. It accurately simulates things like feral dogs dragging food to places of safety, guns jamming at the worst possible time, and your probable inability to survive a one-on-five shoot-off with highly competent Ukrainian Spetsnaz. Anything with hitpoints is pretty much looking out for itself.
Q: Okay, I’m pretty convinced, I gotta have emergent behavior! But Mr. Warren Spector, just how do I ensure plausible but unexpected things will happen?
Not-actually!Spector: Let me paraphrase a few points from a speech I gave recently but this Internet person posting this post was never actually there to hear and is probably maligning my character by misunderstanding something important. As much as possible, you need to have:
- Global rules, avoiding specific or instanced behavior for things besides easter eggs or quest-important stuff. You need to let the systems work this out. Speaking of systems, you also need
- Interacting systems that are consistent with expectations, but not predetermined. For instance, a torch has both fire and light; some objects are flammable, and some guards notice light. Speaking of properties things can have, you finally need
- A variety of object properties with simulated effects that a player can recognize and engage with. If there is water in your game, it should behave like water, and it should be behaved in like water. It should put out torches. It should not drown humans immediately on contact.
This should sound obvious, but for any “thing” in the game, you need to be able to break it down into its relevant attributes (what a Hume-an revolution AH HA HA HA HA), and those attributes need to play by the world’s rules for that attribute. If you have a spell in the game that turns red things blue, then by gum you had better not have a red thing that doesn’t turn blue when the spell gets a legit hit.
Naturally, all this categorizing takes a lot of effort. Not only do you have to make all this stuff, you have to fine tune the holy crap out of it to make a world that’s just the right kind of complex. But when you’ve got enough things in place, what comes out of it is likely to surprise you.
Just the other day on another forum, I wrote a hamfisted post that touched on how The Elder Scrolls has always had elements of getting the procedural/emergent stuff and gets so close, but never quite got it all down. I doubt it’s for a lack of trying, mind you. I will say that all the random anonymous people from the highway robbery / Radiant quest / pre-Morrowind giant cities always stick out as horrifyingly meaningless next to the named ones and the casual conversations between NPCs in Oblivion/Skyrim come off as contrived because almost nobody talks to each other....
I have a friend who raves to no end about the community-pak’d version of STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl because it does this so well. It accurately simulates things like feral dogs dragging food to places of safety, guns jamming at the worst possible time, and your probable inability to survive a one-on-five shoot-off with highly competent Ukrainian Spetsnaz. Anything with hitpoints is pretty much looking out for itself.
Q: Okay, I’m pretty convinced, I gotta have emergent behavior! But Mr. Warren Spector, just how do I ensure plausible but unexpected things will happen?
Not-actually!Spector: Let me paraphrase a few points from a speech I gave recently but this Internet person posting this post was never actually there to hear and is probably maligning my character by misunderstanding something important. As much as possible, you need to have:
- Global rules, avoiding specific or instanced behavior for things besides easter eggs or quest-important stuff. You need to let the systems work this out. Speaking of systems, you also need
- Interacting systems that are consistent with expectations, but not predetermined. For instance, a torch has both fire and light; some objects are flammable, and some guards notice light. Speaking of properties things can have, you finally need
- A variety of object properties with simulated effects that a player can recognize and engage with. If there is water in your game, it should behave like water, and it should be behaved in like water. It should put out torches. It should not drown humans immediately on contact.
This should sound obvious, but for any “thing” in the game, you need to be able to break it down into its relevant attributes (what a Hume-an revolution AH HA HA HA HA), and those attributes need to play by the world’s rules for that attribute. If you have a spell in the game that turns red things blue, then by gum you had better not have a red thing that doesn’t turn blue when the spell gets a legit hit.
Naturally, all this categorizing takes a lot of effort. Not only do you have to make all this stuff, you have to fine tune the holy crap out of it to make a world that’s just the right kind of complex. But when you’ve got enough things in place, what comes out of it is likely to surprise you.
sea had swallowed all. A lazy curtain of dust was wafting out to sea