Nostalgfia - GAME OVER SCUM WIN

like it's kinda like saying "oh but you're so good at town of salem this is suspect" like yeah okay cool where's the wiki of possible roles, where's the list telling us what type of roles are in this one, and also wow this day sure has been going on for a while.

I've been annoyed for a while at this particular line of suspicion! Like, sure. Be suspicious that I might be maf going for sympathy points, "oh no i wasted a bunch of my investigations what a shaaaaame" is totally a thing that probably makes sense to keep note of, but the idea that I should be just as good or confident between totally different formats is nonsense

That aside, let's do a quick fact check, because you got the bolded part up there all wrong. We've had no double-role town players in our roleflips excepting Solaris the Mason/Doctor, who was the only dual-role, and as a Mason is only barely a dual role; everyone else is single role, so I don't even know where you're getting this. Moreover, half of flipped scum are dual roles (Godfather/Petty Thief, since there's only 2). At best, we have 1 dual role on each team; the tendency you cited doesn't even exist.

Miscommunications, again :/

By double-role I mean 'two of the same role on one side', i.e. granolaman/aC both being town item crafters, or seedy/robottobt both being scientists, or sinkingsailor/myself both being roleblockers.

or Sunspider/CSJ both being mafia petty thieves, goes the line of thinking

if we ARE lynching someone that isn't Sunspider today, wheat, can we make it Nercania-Orccelga instead then? Because again, lynching Akumu is a huge waste if he's poisoned, which I'm pretty darn sure he is.

Wheat: you're confirmed town because of the confirmed town investigators' earlier results on Night 2:

A52 watched CSJ, and was redirected to watching himself. He saw you, Palamedes, N-O, aC and Robottobt visit you. From this we KNOW FOR A FACT that a52 and CSJ were busdriven (or at the very least actions were redirected from CSJ to you) that night. This also agrees with Pharmacy's claim to have bussed a52 and CSJ that night.

Robottobt's (only actual) checked claim was comparing CSJ and you, Wheat, on Night 2. They got a 'same' result. Because actions on CSJ were redirected to a52, this means that the 'same' result was that both a52 and you, Wheat, are town.

*Correction to the rundown in the previous post: He saw you, Palamedes, N-O, aC and Robottobt visit himself (a52).

*or at the very least actions were redirected from CSJ to a52) that night

Appeal to the rest of y'all that aren't wheat/sunspider I guess:

Can we lynch Sunspider? I think my earlier arguments still hold, and that it's the best lynch for town right now if Sunspider is scum. It is definitely not the best lynch for town right now if Sunspider is a third party, but I think that is less likely than mafia!Spoids and also it is not a complete waste of a lynch if that is the case (unlike an N-O lynch where N-O turns out to have been town all along, while while imo extremely unlikely is still possible, unlike a town!sunspider).

yeah, I agree. a survivor at MYLO is no good, though there probably is at least one more 3p around (or more, if Sunspider’s lying)
vote: Sunspider

I will also add that according to a52, pharmacy DID appear when they watched wheat n1, and pharmacy claimed to have bussed wheat/reyweld. so idk what’s up with pharmacy and watcher-visibility
anyways we’re not pressuring pharmacy that much cuz they’re new, they clearly are a busdriver at the very least, and they...aren’t confirmed to be “not town.” mirdini and I have BOTH listed them as a possible future lynch, they’re just...lower priority. and...lurking for an entire day isn’t all that town, as understandable as it might be from a life perspective

Actually I think the n2 bussing may have been invisible because a52 himself got bussed, and maybe that disqualified him from being able to see the bus? If you're on the bus, you can't see the bus drive by, I guess.

anyhow have a final wall bc I did a reread

I think I'm going to demand a Sunspider lynch no items final destination, because of a segment I'll call

So Do We Wanna Talk Hashtag Scum Lynching Receipts

I've been pressuring 2 players who flipped scum the start and consistently voted to kill 'em.

You did vote for CB on day 1, but that was during the day one 'people poking each other for reads' phase where no-one was getting seriously lynched. That could be proper town-scum fencing or it could be proper mafia distancing.

Day 2 your first post was *agreeing* with (previously suspicious but now ok?) CB that Pharmacy was worth a vote (post #358), as well as rejecting Granolaman lumping you and CSJ together and insinuating that Granola was scum with CSJ instead. Your next couple posts were pretty samey, mostly joining in on the item mechanics puzzling (#407, #415, #435, #449, #451, ). #449 also included throwing more shade in robottobt/pharms' direction.

You do interrogate CSJ about his item weirdness in #455/#457 which leads in part to the thread turning on him, but you only vote for him in #500 at which point CSJ already has 6 votes on him (and another committed from Granola), well on his way to a seemingly inevitable hard lynch. That's definitely in the bussing zone re: lynch votes. And it was Solaris that started the initial line of inquiry re: CSJ.

And I still see potential for CSJ to be a sacrifice, to let Mafia earn Town Cred, especially from the folks joining the vote late with no reason.

take a drink

At this point CSJ also basically throws in the towel, and you spar a bit with Palamedes. Then Pala does his big 'guilty on CB' reveal, before which you have not mentioned CB since your day 1 vote-poke. I would not call that 'consistently voted to kill' her :P. You say you're cool with a CB lynch if Pala tells you the item name (tbf, I asked the same, this part isn't scummy or anything), he doesn't, you eventually vote CB in #609, 5th on the wagon.

Day 3 rolls around and CSJ is dead-to-rights despite my waffling for 6 hours, he gets lynched, you aren't around during the day for entirely understandable RL reasons.

So yeah, re-reading through the above, idk if I would say you've been "pressuring 2 players who flipped scum since the start and consistently voted to kill 'em", at least not in any way notably different to the other people on those wagons. Speaking of the scum wagons, here they are:

First vote on CSJ Day 2: CSJ: (7) (Schazer, Awkwardcarapace, Seedy, Mirdini, Solaris, Robust Laser, Sunspider)
Final vote on CB Day 2: Coldblooded: (10) (Palamedes, Cat, Sunspider, Granolaman, AwkwardCarapace, Schazer, CSJ, Coldblooded, Solaris, Wheat)
Final vote on CSJ Day 3: CSJ: (7) (Seedy, AwkwardCarapace, nercania-orccelga, Reyweld, Palamedes, Mirdini,Granolaman)

if anything this makes me feel even better about Schazer and Seedy (first/third on the D2 CSJ wagon). The rest of that wagon (including my vote!) is more bandwagon-y, and the other two wagons are mostly meaningless (apart from the Palamedes Town Cred) because they were pretty inevitable once they started (guilty result on CB, CSJ eating the lynch he was supposed to eat on D2).

What's your priority lynch list seedy/mirdini.

I'll just pop in since I'm too busy to do a proper catchup post right now but am seeing more talk about the random doubles role conspiracy. Literally the only thing that would confirm that right now is Sunspider flipping scum - in which case seedy and Mirdini might be legit. Sunspider being an actual third party leads to the double roles theory being even less likely (unless one of the two die in the night and flip town). Multiple item related roles like inventor or even mailman make sense, since this game seems to be very item focused. Scientist and Roleblocker, of all of the possible roles, less so. At the very least I wouldn't give Mirdini an antidote and see how things go in a Sunspider not scum world.

I mean personally I think odds are slightly higher that sunspider is scum and Akumu third party but I wanted to throw this up in case my fears are correct and I get killed in the night before I can verify them.

Voteses:

Nercania: (1) (Schazer)
Akumu: (2) (Palamedes, Wheat)
Pharmacy: (1) (Sunspider)
Reyweld: (1) (Akumu)
Sunspider: (4) (Robust Laser, Reyweld, Mirdini, Seedy)


Abstaining: (2) (nercania-orccelga, pharmacy)


6 to Hard Lynch, 3 to Soft Lynch, deadline is 10:30 PM CST, July 14th, ~28 hours from now

What's your priority lynch list seedy/mirdini.

yeah sorry for Too Many Words

I think Laser is less likely to be scum than Sunspider/N-O/Akumu, currently. If one out of those 3 turns out to be not-mafia, RL/Pharmacy/Reyweld are all back in the picture at roughly equal levels of suspicious for me, with the difference depending somewhat on which of the former 3 turned out to be not-mafia

so Sunspider -> Akumu (if still alive tomorrow) -> N-O -> Pharmacy (if Sunspider is 3P)/Robust Laser/Reyweld

and if all the remaining scum aren't in the above scum have almost definitely won at that point, but humoring the possibility I'd then long-shot lynch decide between Palamedes and Seedy. As for who out of the two I'd lynch first can't really decide right now bc Pala still hasn't claimed (not that he should, today at least).

If Sunspider is 3p I agree with that list, but if Sunspider is scum, then N-O can't be scum unless our mafia count is off, and Pharms or Reyweld (or you I suppose) has to be maf. Or me, I guess, under the current popular theory that I might be lying.

Howso RL? If Sunspider is scum, and N-O and Akumu are scum, that makes 3 mafia - and by the numbers there should be 3 mafia left (+/- 1 but I've already gone into details there). In that world all of you/Pharms/Reyweld would be town.

Yeah, 3 mafia. Sunspider being maf would leave 2. Then Akumu, which would leave one. And in my investigate, between you, Pharms, and Reyweld, there is at least one maf. So if N-O is scum, then my invest would be wrong. Unless, of course, there's four living scum right now, which is possible, but terrifying.

Ah, right, good call. Four scum is theoretically possible but I'm preeetty sure we're looking at 3 left.

There's also still the possibility that your check got misdirected (presumably by the scum redirect role), which would also make a spoids-akumu-NO team more possible.

also going to say this in bold one more time since we're into the last 24 hours and I don't think extending the day yet another time's gonna be very productive:

If you have an antidote on your person tonight (and you're town :v), DO NOT hand it out, if Akumu's poisoned scum and they manage to redirect it to themselves we're basically losing a lynch.

I know everyone's tired of the day and just wants to kill someone, but please hear me out.

I'm not an inexperienced player. I'm not prone to mistakes. Im not 100% accurate on my scum suspects, but I've been right when it counted; especially when no one else was suspecting them. For example, as Mirdini said, I started pressure and arguments to out and eventually kill the Mafia Godfather/Thief CSJ, despite no momentum or suspicion on them prior.

Moreover, if you think I'm scum, how stupid must you assume I am?! Consider; in the universe where I was scum, a gambit trading CSJ the Godfather+Thief's life for me the plain Mafia Thief is flipping stupid, and a waste of a huge advantage! Would you want to willingly kill a teammate and throw out the advantage of having 2 roles that effectively steal one shot powers from town (items)? Yeah! Me neither! It'd be flipping stupid! And hell, would you do that when it wasn't helpful or necessary to scumteam whatsoever? Would you go out of your way to kill a CSJ who was your same-but-more-role-powerful, harder to detect, and at the time suspicion-free teammate? Yeah! Again! Me neither!

For me to have gone out of my way to lead a kill on who might be the most powerful and hard-to-out Mafia, with a strong advantage in an item focused game, at a time when it wasn't necessary or helpful, I'd have to be a special kind of idiot. And I'm not.

And, last point if that's not enough; were I scum, would it have been at all sensible to claim 3p, make a case on Pharmacy who no one is interested in lynching, and defending it to what may be my grave? Rather than teaming up on existing lynch momentum, and simply casting doubt on the "you're not on the same team as awkwardcarapace" scan, rather than making a flipping scene?

Consider that. Still convinced I'm scummy? Still eager to lynch someone who isn't town's enemy? Someone who's gone for scum even when it made me look bad, until they roleflip?

Or heck, maybe we can Occams Razor this shit, not assume I'm pulling some absurdly self-harming and risky gambit. Maybe I'm just town, and once again am just trying to kill more scum. Namely Pharms, who I have Pretty Damn Hard Evidence is the source of our unknown poisoning problem, and who can't even defends against my claim. And yet sure, you're pushing to kill me and bring town to MYLO, or a possible scum win if the scum team managed to get even 1 ammo, and Nola's missing gun.

Just check yourself. And please just vote Pharmacy. I've been right on scum twice before, and am not alone in reading them as scum throughout this game.

Okay so I also mention this later in the post but I do have to say I'm VERY SPLIT on wanting to lynch Sunspider right now because that was a Powerful Post, but my gut is still telling me to believe in it and writing up this post has reaffirmed it so:

Spoids as much as the 'likes people playing mafia who haven't played before on ET who post and doesn't want to be obstinate' side of me wants to believe all of that and run with your desire for Pharms to be dead, I don't think things are as clear-cut as you're making them out to be.

Also for the record these words are mostly for lynch-argumentation's sake/other folks, so if I'm explaining Mafia Concepts/Play Tendencies it's not because I think you don't know them or anything like that.

I'm not an inexperienced player. I'm not prone to mistakes. Im not 100% accurate on my scum suspects, but I've been right when it counted; especially when no one else was suspecting them. For example, as Mirdini said, I started pressure and arguments to out and eventually kill the Mafia Godfather/Thief CSJ, despite no momentum or suspicion on them prior.

[Intentionally lynching CSJ D2 would be really dumb etc.]

I said you initially poked CSJ, I don't think you were trying to get him lynched (especially without a vote!). Scum can and will poke scum teammates during the game day, especially if those teammates are going off-piste, in order to try and get them to look townier. (Plus, scum want to interact with scum because if they avoid each other it Looks Weird). Click into the spoiler for the DETAILED ANALYSIS MY AUDIENCE HAS COME TO EXPECT FROM ME

Show Content

Spoiler

CSJ, did you get a recipe today, like Schazer did from Mir's book?

The only non-junk item I have is one that's now going to paint a huge target on my back right next to the other ones painted by people neck deep in shenanigans, yay!

So, that's your roundabout way of saying no, you didn't get a recipe? You don't need to say what it is, I was just wondering if you got a recipe when it came out of the box. Speaking of, when did it come out of the box?

Also, who's painting targets on you, and what would you say to them to address their concerns and/or change their minds?

So are you now coyly implying that you did get a recipe as one of those 3 items? Or did you mean the book was one of the three items, and you're still avoiding saying if you got a recipe from it or not? If so buddo, there's zero harm in confirming or denying if you got a recipe from your book today.

Why are you being extremely weird about this? Also, would you care to answer my earlier question?

Show Content

A helpful reminder

Also, who's painting targets on you, and what would you say to them to address their concerns and/or change their minds?

While you are somewhat antagonistic here, you don't vote him over it, and all the questioning can be spun either way re: (if you're a third party) you're trying to get him to dig a deeper grave or (if you're mafia) you're trying to give him a way out of the hole he's started digging for himself. Without a vote this stuff could all still be distancing, imo, which makes sense considering people were already commenting on how weird CSJ's bomb theorizing was.

And, last point if that's not enough; were I scum, would it have been at all sensible to claim 3p, make a case on Pharmacy who no one is interested in lynching, and defending it to what may be my grave? Rather than teaming up on existing lynch momentum, and simply casting doubt on the "you're not on the same team as awkwardcarapace" scan, rather than making a flipping scene?

Considering that if you'd tried the 'oh lol must've been misdirected tack' you probably would've been lynched with a lot less debate, and that your current arguing is making my brain make REALLY DISTRESSED NOISES re: 'but what if Spoids is telling the truth', I think this is exactly the right tack to be taking if you're scum. Which, if you are, kudos, because this lynch is proving to be like pulling teeth (and I mean that in the most complimentary sense).

Also, your case on Pharmacy started out before Seedy's reveal, when lynching Pharmacy was certainly still more on the table. Your 3p claim only came later, when it was forced out of you. Which is also more suspicious, bc if you were a super town helpful 3P I think you'd... probably claim 3P outright for full disclosure so something like the seedy check on you casting suspicion on you wouldn't happen.

Namely Pharms, who I have Pretty Damn Hard Evidence is the source of our unknown poisoning problem, and who can't even defends against my claim.

how is a theoretical town!pharmacy supposed to defend against a poisoning accusation from a mafia!you except with 'I've never had any poison, what?'. (Which is what she's done).

Just check yourself. And please just vote Pharmacy. I've been right on scum twice before, and am not alone in reading them as scum throughout this game.

this is where you especially lost me, because you haven't "been right on scum twice before", the CB lynch was not your doing and you didn't push her before that guilty apart from a D1 Info Poking Vote. and re: CSJ I went over that above.

Maybe I'm just town, and once again am just trying to kill more scum. Namely Pharms

this is just the part where my brain can't decide whether it believes this as playingastown!3P really getting into scumhunting, or mafia making a slip

Growl....

*dog approaches this cautiously... if
mirdinis reasoning is "only town doubles have shown up, so a double thief for scum makes sense", and mirdini includes themself on that list as double roleblocker... why not just as easily a double mafia roleblocker? What reason is there for the dog to be continuously roleblocked?*

As I've detailed before, I think the scum item role probably works like the town item roles, in that he gets to pick a predetermined # (20%, maybe, if RL is telling the truth re: his (town?) role?) of players and randomly hands out Bad Items to them. Probably with a limited stock of poison that has all been handed out at this point. Also mafia having two straight-up Invisible Item + Role Roleblockers would usually be kind of busted, less so in a game filled with this much power, but moreso again with these roleblocking bombs + items going around.

Like, so far we've had a straight-up scum roleblocker, these bombs, these turkish delights, and I can confirm ANOTHER roleblocking item (that requires ammo) because I've been sitting on it for a night (it's the Blow Darts).

Edit by way of post:

In case of sunspider being scum its a safer bet to lynch akumu than hope all night actions resolve how you want; the only scenario in which lynching a thief (in a game where a lot of items are risky or bad to get) is more advantageous to getting Any Other Scumrole (including busdriver, who makes investigators results less confident) is also one that can be easily bypassed by lynching that same poisoned scum *

Okay I guess I'm just going to say this outright right now, because I'm probably kidding myself re: scum not noticing: the other reason I really don't want a scum!sunspider living into the night is because I HAVE A ONE-SHOT GUN ITEM THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE AMMO and I would REALLY prefer it doesn't fall into scum hands. And from the role Sunspider has claimed, she can pick and choose which items to steal after checking someone's inventory.

TODAY in my DEAR COMBINATOR, I mixed up some Blow Darts I had with THE VERY POISON THAT FLOWS THROUGH MY VEINS and created

the POISON BLOWDARTS

(and I still have not been told if I can use them as a daykill or not, rip).

clarification on that last line: the Blow Darts are apparently a night-action only item (which makes sense, since they *role*block and role actions only happen during the night), so there's a precedent to suggest that their Poison version would also be night-use only. On the flip side is RobotNerd's earlier assertion that

Mechanical clarification: I process item movements at night, in quicktopics. Item actions may be made at any time.

which, since there's no mechanical issue with a kill happening during the day, would suggest being able to use the poison ones during the day. So it's currently A MYSTERY. Right now I'm running my arguments under the "worst case" assumption that they are night-only. If I was able to use them during the day, I would probably have shot Sunspider already :P

I'm.... heavily leaning right now on changing to Pharms. Scumspider is still possible but like, that post up there feels pretty good to me but also like... unless Dini has been playing powerfully, I know either Pharms or Reyweld are in the mafia. And like, my suspicion of Reyweld largely comes down to what could just be worry about getting mislynched (maybe possibly) but like.

Yeah.
unvote
Vote: Pharmacy.
and like, we're still at soft on spoids afaik here but like. Right now, the accusation of hiding poison is the like only mechanical claim that's been made right now. Third party is a reasonable explanation to an accusation made, which means that like, a third party flip doesn't actually tell as much since like, 'oh well that means neither were lying?', but like, no matter what, somebody here is lying. and honestly lynching pharms is the more direct way of being able to tell who. townpharms would have no reason to deny poison if it were there. scumpharms would. And lying to that degree would definitely make spoids scum rather than 3p, right?

RL you're correct that pharms flipping town would pretty much guarantee a mafia Sunspider, and that if Sunspider flips 3P it doesn't give us a commensurate guilty on Pharmacy.

My counterpoint, apart from the GUN ISSUE I detailed above: Lynching a 3P Sunspider is preferable to lynching a town Pharmacy, not only because 3P survivor will joint with scum at MYLO but also because town busdriver is an *incredibly* valuable role at this point in the game; it means the mafia cannot rely on their kill to hit the most valuable targets (or rely on it at all, if the driver gets devious). mafia!Sunspider going for a Hail Mary Pharmacy lynch makes sense even after the seedy reveal because at this point it's Her Or Pharmacy (with the accusation in play). BEFORE the seedy reveal, we could have lynched Pharmacy and had her flip town and Sunspider could still have claimed her item check got redirected or something so it wouldn't have been a straight-up death sentence, necessarily.

Like, one of any mafia's biggest nightmares is a town busdriver driving their kill onto one of them