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Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-13-2013
![[Image: Eskerotitle2.png]](https://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/Genprofile/Eskerotitle2.png)
This is a new thread for discussion of developing this game since the old thread is located on a sinking ship, aka: The Games subforum of MSPAF.
Quote:Eskero:
The sun shines bright on a land who's fate is manipulated by the whim of wayward deities who walk the land searching for the answers to their existence. As they question, men suffer under their whim. The bravest of the mortal races seek pacts with the deities to steal a bit of their reality bending powers, and grow into powerful beings themselves, though at the heavy toll of binding their soul to the very fabric of creation, a burden mortals were not meant to endure.
The stage is set in the age of lords, a time in Eskero's history when men and deities worked together to construct great kingdoms from the natural and supernatural resources that littered the lands of Eskero. Fueled though by ancient grudges and the desire for power, these kingdoms now do war with one another as the brave venture deep down into the necropolises of dead civilizations to uncover old secrets and old beasts.
You are a group of Aspects, men who have formed pacts with Gods for the power to battle the very elements that have been warped by the personal demons of deities in an attempt to change the tide of history in your favor, or perhaps for the good of all.
More info about Eskero can be found on my #Eskero tag on my Tumblr.
Feel free to discuss/suggest for the setting and game in this thread.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Romythered - 03-13-2013
welp. I see things happened.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - deadcrystal - 03-13-2013
You have any thoughts as of yet on how you want the system base to work on?
I've played a fair few systems which were fantastic example of different kinds of systems and it fairly obviously makes a pretty major impact to the way it feels as a game. e.g. dice pool, skill+roll, roll+keep etc.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Schazer - 03-14-2013
Which Aspect classes are you going to have available for your first version of the game? I've seen you describe Alchemists, Braves, Painters, and Gossipers, which seem to translate to the archetypal RPG classes with INT, STR, DEX, and CHA/WIS. Would you have a stat system that complements your core classes, or is this complicated by classes we haven't seen yet?
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-14-2013
The system is still up in the air since I'm trying to find something that's speedy and flows with storytelling the best, also I have this silly idea that the base stats of characters don't change, instead leveling up gives more options in the form of points you can spend to get new songs, and modify existing spells to fit your character better.
As far as classes go, that was the basic idea, though the spanner in the works is the Orator class. I was thinking of making the battle mechanics of the classes vary slightly or completely so they ~feel~ different to play from one another.
Funnily enough, the inspiration for that is from a cardgame that I've been playing called Vanguard, where the different clans, which act like the colors of magic, have different ways they play such as the ghostly pirates resurrecting each other from the grave and the knight dudes calling each other from the deck.
Perhaps, the system for classes that I could use is that the different stats determine different things, such as giving you more dice or requiring a smaller roll to succeed, though the way the die are used or what they determine is different. Something like that I guess, though my ideas are pretty malleable and ready for differing thoughts at this stage.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Falconer Lombard - 03-14-2013
Hm, the addition of songs and things reminds me of how the Savage Worlds magic system works.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - deadcrystal - 03-14-2013
Fair do~s.
Now are you intending that most or all PC's are aspects? Cos' if so you're going to give careful consideration to character creations so that it isn't an utter chore, as each person will to make both the character and their deity, which could be time consuming, or it could be quite simple depending on how you set it up. (An example of a system for creating something similar is the one for creating Noble houses in the game of thrones RPG, which is actually really fun.)
Also regarding deities what power level so to speak are the PC's going to have access to? If we were to say that the domain of the sun is a third order domain, and the domain of the sunrise is a fourth order domain (DIAF Absolute) (Picking these values right out of the air). What would we be looking at then? Something like the levels of the aspect commissions i.e. domains such as Dew or potential energy?
If people are free (If not precisely recommended) to make non Aspect characters, something else occurs, is it possible to stop being the Aspect of a deity, without the death of either party? If so that would be pretty interesting, particularly with regards to braves, as I believe you've said they of all Aspects are the most interlaced with their domain, so change physically the most as well? Changes which would presumably be permanent.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-14-2013
I do plan to make all the PC's Aspects, and creating a deity as well as a domain was a real problematic endeavor since your domain determines which songs you can sing, and asking someone to come up with a new domain is asking them to also construct their ladder of growth, which even with some rather defined rules and templates might be tedious. I'm VERY open to suggestions in this regard, but right now the way I'm leaning towards is creating a lot of defined base sub-domains that come together to create a main domain out of 3 or so of them, so it'd be like picking and choosing your skill trees (Yawn's dream domain would be illusion, clouds, and night). The problem with this is the amount of work I'd have to do creating that many sub-domains to choose from and making them all relatively balanced, and maybe coming up with some unique curveballs in there so they aren't all just too samey to really matter.
There's also the issue of some classes using their domain differently, such as with Braves versus Alchemists. What would be the first level skill of the flame sub-domain? A projectile fireball that fits with alchemists or a flaming sword ability that fits with a brave?
So yeah, if anyone knows a not as tedious way to ask players to create their own domain and skills, that'd be fabulous.
And yeah, I was thinking something around the Aspect commissions. I wouldn't think that their power level is as defined as their deity by how broad their domain is, though I do want to encourage creative domains as opposed to someone just rolling up an Aspect of Flame. The whole choosing three or so sub-domains might help in that regard since maybe 2 domains would fall into the same neighborhood but a third would throw in a wildcard to make them think more about what domain they're creating with their combination.
Aspects are Aspects fo' life and even goes down through their blood to their children, though maybe a character's arc could be their quest to find a way to get around this contract and de-attach themselves from their domain. I think it'd be a pretty interesting epilogue for a changed ex-brave to try and fit back into society after turning into a bit of a monstrosity by their domain.
post-thought: Maybe sub-domains would just have skills that are more basic like for the previous example, "Create flame" would have a certain damage modifier, and while alchemists have the choice to create projectiles, braves have the ability to apply songs to their weapons and bodies (Aka flaming fists woo woo!). Maybe a system like this would help encourage creative solutions since the songs themselves need to be applied in certain ways and the different classes have basic rules about how they can use songs themselves.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-14-2013
(03-14-2013, 04:14 PM)GenTrigger Wrote: »post-thought: Maybe sub-domains would just have skills that are more basic like for the previous example, "Create flame" would have a certain damage modifier, and while alchemists have the choice to create projectiles, braves have the ability to apply songs to their weapons and bodies (Aka flaming fists woo woo!). Maybe a system like this would help encourage creative solutions since the songs themselves need to be applied in certain ways and the different classes have basic rules about how they can use songs themselves.
Was thinking about this bit before having read it, funnily enough. An "easy" way to have different skills across classes would be to have each class have different base mechanics for casting (or singing or Using Skills in general or whatever) such that, though they may all have the same aspect, they still fulfill unique roles. Different ways to apply similar techniques. Basically the thing you just said, yeah.
Running with the sub-domain concept, you could have basic class mechanics modified by details of the sub-domain. Like, yeah, a Flame aspect would be a pretty straight-forward deal... but add to that a conceptual sub-domain like Motion, or... fuck, Iunno, Dreams? Crazy shit happens.
Point being, Braves will operate like other Braves, Alchemists will operate in ways like each other, et al: the basic concept and mechanics of each class should feel distinct from each other class but remain the same within that class. But classes from each domain should be affected by that domain in such a way that they, too, feel unique from other domains, and you can achieve that by having domains alter the basic mechanics of each class in addition to altering what kind of damage they do. A Brave with Wind would probably be much more mobile than a Brave with Earth, for instance.
...Diablo 3's rune system, basically. That sort of... the way two different people can have exactly the same skills but fulfill entirely different roles based on how they've chosen those skills to work, but any Monk still punches people a bajillion times and any Wizard still deals constant damage from far away. That sort of thing.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-14-2013
Yeah, I think you understand exactly what I'm getting at NTA.
This means the dynamic of customization comes down to class, then domain, which would lead to some fun to be had with people who just enjoy trying out different builds. Maybe some songs modify how another song is cast, and while it can effect a song from the same sub-domain it can also mingle with a song of another sub-domain to modify that. Sooo, maybe a lightning sub-domain's skill of making a song act like chain lightning moving from one enemy to another, can be applied to a flame sub-domain to make chain fire, which would pretty much be like a spreading wildfire. Something like that.
What exactly classes effect I'm still not sure at all, like the whole how songs are used thing is a start, but I'm having a harder time imagining how songs are used by other classes like gossipers, painters, and Orators. I think that just requires me to think deeper into how they channel their songs, or what role they fulfill.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-14-2013
Basically exactly that, yeah. Class "roles" might be a bit mutable in the traditional sense, since some domains are going to be more naturally geared towards certain... uh, roles. Fire and Ice are the obvious examples; the former tends to be a damage role, while the latter often includes crowd control.
Please, note the qualifiers. I'm saying "this is how it is usually done," which is neither "this is how it is always done" or "this is how you should do it". These are simply convenient examples of how Domain could affect Aspect roles regardless of what class they are.
Rather, classes ought focus on the application of songs. As I parse it, this mostly involves effective range, area of affect, time-delayed casting, buffs and debuffs, et al. Do they lay traps? Fire beams or bolts? Are their spells affected by terrain or obstacles? Do they spread their damage across many targets, affect a set area, or focus on one enemy? Is their AoE centered on themselves, an enemy, a friend, or wherever? Do their songs last, and does that affect their ability to sing more songs? Do they have a resource pool; how would said pool be reduced or replenished?
Shoutouts to Scott, from whose discussions I'm pulling most of these questions. Also: make a goddamned thread already.
Again, basically, what you said. Classes should primarily affect how the song is cast; Domains, what the song does. Yeah, yeah, I'm simplifying and there's bound to be overlap. I like getting gists, okay? Shush.
E: To that end, I'd recommend hashing out how each class acts as you have been (there's none on Orators??? 4shaim), but to bear in mind how their skills manifest and how that could be converted to a tabletop setting. Painters strike me as a martial class, f'rinstance: they clearly cast some sort of magic with their paint, but they also can't (so far as I can tell) cast "at range", and have the benefit of having a bigass chunk of probably-wood to smack about their enemies with t'boot. Your description of them as expressive, dynamic, and oh wait no you just straight-up use Dexterity Over Strength yeah okay I was going to lead into "continuing the Diablo 3 metaphor, basically the Monk" but it seems you already have that covered.
They're not a precision class, so they'd probably affect the terrain, rather than specific targets, with their... song... paint? ...And would still ultimately need to get near their target to do anything, despite being able to affect large areas.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-15-2013
WHICH REMINDS ME
You've said that the base system (what I have previously been interpreting as "the way things are calculated") is up in the air, but I've been making some assumptions about the way this all will work regardless, so I figure I should get that cleared first as a lot of my suggestions will probably focus on the mechanics of the game, and how the world you've already thought up could fit into a more-rigid game structure.
Namely, since all the mathematical aspects are all on lockdown until that shit is sorted, I've been trying to figure how characters interact with the map. You can sort of see that in my previous posts; I talk about terrain-affectation, AoE skills, and touch on movement. I've been assuming a classic D&D gridmap (I blame in part the use of "pen and paper" and my by-and-large lack of exposure to modern tabletops), but have since realized that environments may not be so rigidly defined for the players - the environments might not even physically exist but for the GM's imagination and (heh) oratorial skills, for all I know.
So, for peace of mind (mine if not yours), are there any mechanical aspects you've as-yet determined? Yeah, I know, potentially tedious to list it all, but as I am constantly reminded whenever I get snippy at someone who isn't psychic, it's a better to lay out what you've already thought of- what you "know"- to avoid the frustration of others' confusion, rather than keep it to yourself and just assume everyone else knows exactly what you know.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-15-2013
As of the moment, I think I would do a grid-based combat map. Movement is too much a part of what I imagine for the combat, and too many individual units may get involved to not use a physical representation. Eskero landscapes are very... obtuse since they're usually the dreamscapes of deities, so even a grid seems like it wouldn't fit as well, though it's the best option.
I mean, just look at Yawn's realm, and Maelstrom's.
The hope is that we can get something that's at least able to be played more easily online on a forum or something, since I think that's how the first few games are gonna go down while we playtest things.
The other thing that I'm more solid about is the decision to keep base stats pretty much the same as the character levels up, while their songs might be what boosts/alters their stats and they just receive more options of songs that they can use, as well as options to modify existing songs to make them more specialized towards the player's style. The thought is that the players don't become HP sponges and are still threatened by lowly grunts as they were before, though they do have a lot more ways to deal with those grunts if they're smart about how they tackle situations.
A thought I had about how weapons work, since they have the arcana inside of them is to have somewhat of an overdrive that they pull off like a crit, where their arcana is released. Creating a list of weapon arcana's would be tedious for a DM to apply to every single useable weapon they find, so maybe basic starter weapons just have a basic 2 of blades or something like that, then "enchanted" weapons have greater arcana like The Gesture, which have more powerful releases. Maybe even the Arcana defines the attack stats of an item, so it's all one big neat bundle.
![[Image: TheGesturefixedcopy.png]](https://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/Genprofile/TheGesturefixedcopy.png)
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-15-2013
I'm thinking about rolling with dice pools with extra dice being a resource to save up and expend strategically on different things during combat. What and how you can use those bonus dice might be different based on the class even. Like maybe Braves can directly apply it to their attack rolls, while Alchemists expend them to cast their songs, and painters use them to refresh their inkwell. Something like that~
(I've been playing a bit of Crimson shroud, and the bonus dice you earn from pulling off combos are pretty rad)
Edit: I've got some stats scratched out that I thought would be valid for the setting.
Power: Coupled with mental attributes such as confidence and passion, those who are sure of themselves and who don't give way to obstacles easily are prone to have a lot of Power. It is force that can be brought to bear by sheer physical strength, or mental willpower. Since hot blooded drive can be turned by Aspects into strength, like a rush of adrenaline, the gossamer itself can be pushed with their bare hands.
Mind: Those with unshakeable focus, and the mental dexterity to think on their toes are said to have a healthy mind. With constant mental exercise, an aspect can make sense of the ever-shifting gossamer and bend it to their will with relative ease. Aspects with a strong mind can even unlock greater understanding about their domain and see how it works so that they can use it with greater efficiency and with a touch of creativity.
Soul: To feed your soul with spirituality, belief, and hope is to help it grow strong and large. Within every living being is their presence in the gossamer, which reacts and affects the shifting tides. With a strong soul, one can sense the currents in the gossamer and see those who dwell within it and within themselves. In a way it is their sixth sense. Those with a strong soul are those who have a greater feeling of self, and are more receptive to the world that surrounds them.
Body: Those who become too dependent on the gossamer forget at times that they have a body to care for, though it is with the gossamer that they can better fortify their skin against injury, guard against disease, mend wounds and survive anything that even a God could throw at them. Those with a strong body are tough, maybe a little impenetrable, but are always reliable as they take good care of themselves, and thus are in the best position to care for others.
Dexterity: Aspects with great dexterity have a certain flick of their wrist, finesse of the touch, and lightness of the foot. They can flow with the strong gusts of the gossamer to carry them further and faster, then gives them a way of flowing around the difficulties to reach flashy and smooth solutions. These are folks who believe in working smart, not hard, and find moving forward to be natural and easy since they don't get stuck in old concepts.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Mythee - 03-16-2013
(Allo copine!)
What you have in terms of stats is original, yet workable. I like it.
Quote: So yeah, if anyone knows a not as tedious way to ask players to create their own domain and skills, that'd be fabulous.
So I gave it some thought with the ideas you've put down so far, and here's an idea. Indeed, it would be way too complex and risky to make a game where players contribute parts to the basic game mechanics themselves every time they play, but structuring the game so that players can put the available pieces together in a customized way that defines their characters is the solution to that.
Kind of like having multiple races and multiple classes for the player to combine into a character (not contributing their own classes and races.) Now imagine applying the same kind of logic to 'element' + 'action' = skill, for each skill, to suit your character's growth while creating novel combinations.
Ex.: The game provides a list of aspects. You're scrolling through it and...
[...]
Sound
Squid
Roofing
Fire
[...!!]
OMG FIRE! [strike]It's so easy to explain so you pick it[/strike]
You are now a Fire god aspect.
The GM informs you that you start with uh, 2 points, and tells you to use them to make your first evah skill(s).
Obviously, your skill is going to involve fire. But HOW?! O: To find out, you look at the actions available under each stat, ALSO provided by the game system.
Power
1- Create - You made it happen. It was you. (Increases the quantity you can make at a time)
2- Intensify - Make it stronger (Increase damage multiplier)
3- Grow - Make it bigger (increase AoE)
Mind
1- Craft - Manipulate the shape of the thing. The more you raise this skill, the farther you can bring the thing away from its original shape.
2- Stabilize - Increases how long it lasts/stability, try not to make something freaky like an eternally laughing puppet kplxthx
3- Imbue - Imbue element/thing with your will. (At a low level, imagine making a candleflame dance coz you made it full of your DANCE DANCE feels untz untz untz. At a high level, you could pretty much give the candleflame a personality and pseudo-life)
Soul
1- Detect - You can sense where it is and understand its nature. (Increases scope/range/detail of this power)
2- Project - You can perceive and communicate through the aspect more and more clearly. (Don't peek on people through candleflame omg) (And don't suddenly start whispering through it without warning) (plz)
3- Channel - Summon a spirit or deity of the aspect into your own body for some time to help. (Moar bffs!)
Body
1- Buff - Your normal weapon/own body gets the added effect of your aspect element.
2- Absorb - You can absorb the element/aspect for increasingly epic healz.
3- Become - You straight up become made of that element/aspect for an increasingly long maximum duration. BO
Dexterity
1 - Flow - Control thing's speed and movement with more and more skill and precision (speed, accuracy, damage)
2 - Dance - Control/flow more and more of the thing at a time. (AoE, damage)
3 - Ride - You can actually move through that aspect element, essentially riding it/teleporting through it in a dematerialized state so long as it's all connected somehow. You can move longer and longer distances as you raise this skill.
So you're all liek, yeah, when I was building my Fire Aspect I wanted to have a mega hott bod [/shot] so most of my stats are in Body, I'll probably take Buff (1 pt) as my first thing I can do with Fire. Therefore I can give my hair a fire buff, and whip it back and forth at my enemies, aww yeaa. But wait! I have one more point to spend! And I certainly don't want to sacrifice the chance of having two skills for the one other Body skill I can invest in (Absorb, costing 2 pts) because then I'll only have a single low level healing spell and no more Buff! Omg! Now that I think of it, wouldn't it be great to have a longer fire whip coming out of my hair? For that, I'll need to shape fire into a whip! So I'm putting my other point into the first Mind skill, Craft.
Also, this is purely roleplay but I think I'd like to name my Fire Craft and Fire Buff combined technique INFERNO'REAL.
Anyways yeah. So long as every part of the system is clearly defined (every lego block crafted to fit in with the others) letting people build stuff out of those blocks would be muy fun and creative.
I feel the need to mention that fire powers are one of my least favorite because they're pretty much every shonen protagonist ever 8'D...
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-16-2013
All of my complaints are about your word choice, which is a good thing as I'm not dissatisfied by the basic concepts you detail, but they are still complaints:
"Dexterity" feels less... conceptual? than the other skills? Like, It feels more like a measurable thing; a discrete, measurable value against something like Soul. Doesn't quite fit. Also four syllables long which is itself not dexterous. I recommend "Grace," though I am also a fan of "Finesse," which you yourself use.
There's also... it's less of A Thing to me than Dexterity is, but... I'm not entirely satisfied with "Mind" and "Body," inasmuch as they're not things that a person can grammatically have and have it be understood that those people are better at that thing than everyone else. Example: "Painters have Grace and Soul" versus "Braves have Power and Body." Y'see? It just doesn't quite work.
But yes I am excited to see where one might go from here. Just based on couplets alone (or, the way I've just described Painters and Braves, however hideously misinformed those interpretations may be) there're a potential ten classes, each with their own philosophies from which a unique playstyle might be derived. Fifteen including "pure" or "doubles" classes. I excite over silly things like this, yes, but it so remains that I am excite.
E: Shoutouts to LEGO as metaphor! Not sure I agree with the specifics, but the idea as a whole (bits and pieces that you can dis- and re-mantle) sounds peachy-keen.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-16-2013
Yeah, names I'm not so solid about, but the ideas behind them I'm feeling pretty good about. I think having the concepts behind them would make for some interesting building of actual personalities behind the stats and funbuilds of negative nelly Braves.
Anyways yes, one more step closer to actually making this thing playable.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-16-2013
Oh oh stupid idea time
(03-14-2013, 04:14 PM)GenTrigger Wrote: »[...]right now the way I'm leaning towards is creating a lot of defined base sub-domains that come together to create a main domain out of 3 or so of them, so it'd be like picking and choosing your skill trees (Yawn's dream domain would be illusion, clouds, and night).
(03-15-2013, 05:03 PM)GenTrigger Wrote: »Eskero landscapes are very... obtuse since they're usually the dreamscapes of deities, so even a grid seems like it wouldn't fit as well, though it's the best option.
(03-16-2013, 02:39 AM)Mythee Wrote: »[... S]tructuring the game so that players can put the available pieces together in a customized way that defines their characters is the solution to that.
[...]
So long as every part of the system is clearly defined (every lego block crafted to fit in with the others) letting people build stuff out of those blocks would be muy fun and creative.
What if sub-domains alter how maps work
Fucked if I know how that'd work, but wouldn't that be super cool
Man
Now I'm imagining just some huge, nebulous modular system where you can just sort of stick shit together and have it do cool things
It'd be hell to actually build but oh man if it could be done
Wherein an Aspect's class, domain, and arcana all make shit happen in different ways
And shit like domains and arcana can affect the way different parts of the word actually operate
Oh man
Oh man
I need to get some sleep
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-16-2013
Posting some ideas from IRC before I go to bed and forget:
Arcana define a weapon's stats, and special abilities (Mainly what happens when it crits/overdrives and unleashes the spirit inside of it). The stats might determine base damage, also maybe base defense?
Also reminder to self to make some domains and sub-domains for them to break them down and start coming up with potential songs that they might use so we can play around with those ideas.
Also change Dexterity to Grace I guess. Body too, that little shit.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-17-2013
On Stats and their Potential Application to the Modification of Dice Pools:
One of the simpler ways to make classes play differently from one another would be to tie their base stats (hereon out referred to as Vitals because why the hell not) directly with the way dice and dice pools work.
Things modified could include: Maximum and minimum die value, dice pool size, number of dice usable at once, number of times actions involving the rolling of dice may be taken, die replenishment rate, die consumption rate, and situations to which any of the previous might apply differently.
My current conception is something like:
Power, as the Vital through which Aspects grow stronger, affects the value of the individual dice in their pool.
Mind, as the Vital through which Aspects focus their abilities, affects how many die they may roll at a time.
Soul, as the Vital through which Aspects become more connected, affects how large their dice pool may be.
Body, as the Vital through which Aspects maintain themselves, affects how quickly their dice pool replenishes.
Grace, as the Vital through which Aspects become more flexible, affects how many actions they make take in a given round.
As an example of how this might work, let's look at Alchemists. As Alchemists tend to be thoughtful and logical (the wizard-analogue class, natch), they would ostensibly start with a high Mind stat. Being able to expend a large number of dice at a single time would make their abilities significantly more powerful than any other class', making them a nuker-archetype. There are quite a few downsides to throwing all your dice away at once, though: you may find yourself so exhausted as to limit movement or your ability to defend yourself. You may take a while to recover, as well. And gods help you if you roll low! ...Though I suppose at that point they're specifically already not helping. whoops???
Point being, all those downsides can be mitigated by the other Vitals. Soul gives you more ammo, Body cuts down on recovery time, and Dexterity gives you the opportunity to gtfo if your nuke misses.
I'm not entirely happy with the way Power and Mind fill similar roles in the above, but they still act differently: Mind potentially increases single-shot damage by huge amounts, but has a much higher penalties for rolling low: namely, that you don't have nearly as many die to do other things with. Power is better for classes that want to deal more consistent damage in smaller-but-more-frequent quantities, and though it may not give as-large bonuses to maximum damage, it could give better minimum damage to less risky maneuvers.
My next post (to follow
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Mythee - 03-17-2013
I really like that idea of how the stats affect dice pools each in their own way sjadkgndkja SO AWESOME also what is even another word for Body. Fitness? Physical Aptitude? Uh... ... Vitality? Dangit, can't think of anything suitable enough!
As for the classes... are they what determines what kind of skill you develop? (I'm guessing yes, that would make sense xD) I think it kind of eliminates the need for what I'd suggested earlier in building skills if that's the case. >.<;;
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-17-2013
On Power and The Mechanics of Die Value:
Two disclaimers before I begin:
This is going to get maths-y and probably a bit stream-of-consciousness as well, so those wary of hard numbers best steer clear.
and
I am basically pulling all this out my ass - howevermuch exposure to RPGs I may have had, I have no practical tabletop experience and cannot say how workable any of the ideas to follow are.
That out of the way, let's get to it. The following continues with my logic from my last post so: if you've not read that I suggest you do that first, and: if the ideas it expounds that relate to this post have been invalidated, feel free to ignore the following.
An aspect's "dice pool" (hereon just "pool" - nts: think of snappy word for this too maybe) is directly defined by two Vitals: Soul and Power. Soul is fairly straightforward; it determines the maximum number of individual die one may have in their die pool at any given time.
Power, as I conceive it, is a bit more complex. It affects individual die values, but it affects them as they relate to each other. Not all dice in a pool have equal value, see; rather, they cover a range of values with an average value that of Power (or some Power-based value).
Maths Begin.
Note: the following example contains numbers for purely exemplary purposes, and does not take into account anything involving whether or not those numbers are appropriate or realistic.
First, let's talk about D-value. This is a thing I have literally just made up to make talking about Power-as-average easier.
D-value hierarchy is based upon the order of the six "base" dice that I have arbitrarily decided to use: D2, D4, D6, D8, D10, and D12. I say "arbitrarily," but you may notice they're consecutive multiples of 2. These might include a seventh die "D0" for flat values, but for the time being f dat noiz. D-Value is calculated by
(DieMax / 2) + Mod OR (DieMax + Mod) / 2
wherein DieMax is the maximum value for a given die and Mod is a value modifier that effectively makes a die into a larger die with a smaller minimum. A D4+2 is a "better" D6, as I see it, since it rolls 3, 4, 5 and 6, but not 1 or 2. Which formula you use depends on whether or not you want D-Value based off the maximum value a die can roll (the latter formula) or the average of the possible rolls (the former).
In the first example, D4+2 has the same D-value as a D8, based on the mean of the values the die can roll. (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8 = (3+4+5+6)/4 = 4.5 which, rounded down, is 4. "(DieMax / 2) + Mod" is just easier to calculate looking at "D4+2".
In the second example, D4+2 has the same D-value as a D6, based on the highest value the die can roll. (4+2)/2 = 6/2 = 3.
So what does all that have to do with Power? Power, as I conceive it, acts as the mean value of the D-values of the dice in one's pool.
Say an Aspect has 6 Soul and 6 Power. This could mean they could have a set of dice with D-values (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6), or (4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8), or (5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7), and so forth.
Maths End.
With such a system in mind, I'm not actually sure which D-value formula works, or if either of them work at all; but such is the idea: a set of dice of varied value centered around a single average value.
The idea behind the varied dice is that it adds another layer of strategy to dice-consumption: do you use your higher-minimum dice for guaranteed decent damage at the risk of taking more damage during your defense phase? or do you save your more reliable dice for healing, or defense, or movement, at the risk of dealing less damage with your attacks?
If that idea of variable dice is itself is untenable or of well-intended-paving, then, well, it was at least a neat thought exercise.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Gen - 03-17-2013
The idea of sturdy dice vs. random dice is interesting, though I think we should do our homework as to how other dice pool systems work. The thing I think we should be looking at along with the mathematical balance issues and how they're solved is also how user friendly the system is. How easy is it to tell which dice to award a player. Like, such a system seems hard to follow since keeping track of the average of values along with which dice of yours are the D4+2 as opposed to just regular D4 would seem like a hassle.
Depth vs. Complexity is the problem here. The rule of thumb is to cut down complexity as much as possible while retaining depth. The "What do I use for offense vs. defense" issue is a good example of depth since it's a deep question that's integral to your survival and while it's a very simple choice to save dice or bank on an attack, it's something that a player might take a lot of factors into considering the situation. "Can I kill them this turn?" "What are the chances of that?" "Is it worth the risk?" The different types of dice described with their modifiers seem like a complexity that players would have to trudge through to figure out, with a lot of mental calculations, which odds are best for what they want to do, and might get in the way of the action in a way that isn't actually that fun.
We're making a pen and paper game, remember that. There's a greater human factor here that has to shine, not a computer doing calculations for the players, or the players being forced into doing too many rough calculations on their own in the heat of combat.
I think there's a lot of value in the basic ideas there, but the execution could use a lot of work.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - Not The Author - 03-17-2013
Hahah, yeah, had a think and was all "man that's unnecessarily complicated, isn't it" (yes it is)
Which lead me to more dum-bers (numbers that are dumb) that are in retrospect probably also too complicated, but considerably less complicated and more sensible than the above formulae. These are detailed in the spoiler at the bottom of this post.
Firstly, I like the idea of awarded dice, but may be interpereting that particular concept ("award/awarded/awarding") in a way you don't mean, and was not thinking of it when performing the above maths.
Secondly, I'd like to highlight what I think are the basic concepts (and/or assumptions) I was trying to get across with all that math on the decent chance they got lost somewhere along the way:
1. I have, according to Wikipedia, been completely misinterpreting the "dice pool" concept, which is probably where at least half of the unnecessary complexity is coming from.
What I had envisioned approximated something closer to a resource pool such as Mana, albeit where each point of "Mana" would itself be a die, and the player would have the option of expending more or fewer dice as they saw fit (depending on the allowances of their Mind stat as detailed afore). What it actually is is that your stats automatically determine how many dice you would roll in any particular situation.
So, yeah, kinda fucked up on that count. Basically disregard the specifics of everything I've said up to now. (Unless dice-as-resource is a concept you'd like to run with, of course.)
2. Power, as a Vital, could serve as a metric of a character's average strength, rather than the maximum as it is usually portrayed. This stat-as-average concept may also be applicable to other Vitals.
3. Including some form of risk-reward in each roll could increase the depth of gameplay, but it would need to be implemented in a minimally-complex way, if at all.
4. I really need to think more about the noncombat applications of these things. Okay this is more a note to myself but come onnnnn me, stop using Diablo as a metric for everything
E:
I feel I ought elaborate a bit more on dice-as-resource. The idea there was that players would have a defined set of dice that would only change if their stats- their base stats, or the actual Vital values- changed. The idea was that these would be by-and-large set in stone, but start throwing in Arcana (which I have likewise been treating as a set-in-stone thing, which it probably won't be) and Buffs and Debuffs and doesn't that assumption seem pretty dang silly now?
I still like the idea and will probably continue to pursue it and try to get it to work but yeah I am beginning to think that I am looking at a problem with the wrong solution in mind.
RE: Eskero: The pen and paper RPG system - deadcrystal - 03-17-2013
Since you don't have much experience with table tops NTA how's about I show peeps how a couple different variations of dice pool games work?
1. Shadowrun: Pools for this game are pretty simple, characters have attributes, e.g. Strength, Body, Willpower, and skills, e.g. Demolitions, Blades, Spellcasting.
A skill check would typically work as follows, for an attempt to hit someone with a sword ,you take the related attribute and skill, i.e Agility, and Blades, and add up the value that character has for each, e.g Let us say that both Agility and Blades have a value of 4. This totals 8, so the player would then roll 8 d6s (Shadowrun being a d6 system) The player would then look at the dice and see how many of them got a 5 or a 6. This constitutes the number of hits. For the majority of tasks there is a certain threshold of hits they need to achieve to succeed at that task. Shadowrun does also possess a kind of dice as resource, that being the attribute Edge. Players may spend edge to add a number of dice equal to their edge attribute to a roll, and also give the roll the property of having exploding 6s, so that every time you roll a 6 you may also roll an additional die.
2. 7th Sea: This game similarly has attributes and skills, but works on a roll and keep basis rather than one of hits. For example, again assuming the check of trying to hit someone with a sword. Let's say the character has a Finesse of 3, and a Fencing knack of 4, they would then add these two together to roll 7 d10s (7th Sea being a d10 system), however they would then pick 3 out of these 7 to keep (The finesse trait determining the number they can keep). They then add these three dice together, and compare that number to a number they would need to match or exceed, a fairly typical example being a TN of 15. Also whenever a dice comes up as 10, you may reroll that die and add that result to that die as well (Assuming you are trained in that skill).
7th sea also has the dice as resource, in the form of drama die. Players may spend a drama die to roll an additional die on a check, and also keep an extra one. This comes with the downside that whenever you spend a drama die, the GM then gets your drama die :3. (Typically so they can hoard them till they have enough drama die to summon a kraken to attack your boat.)
3. Game of thrones: Also a roll and keep system, very similar to that of 7th sea. Say a player has survival at rank 3, they would roll 3 dice and keep 3 on any check to do with survival. Players may also take specialities in any trait, allowing them to roll additional unkept dice, e.g. survival of 3, speciality in idk, foraging at 1 (Don't know the system terribly well) They would roll 4 and keep 3, again trying to hit a certain pre-determined Target Number.