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+---- Thread: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. (/showthread.php?tid=1577)
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-09-2016
(05-09-2016, 03:11 AM)bigro Wrote: »Yes, but have you considered every character being a self insert, variations of the same person even.
rip majhost :,(
(05-09-2016, 03:29 AM)Gimeurcookie Wrote: »*This isn't counting webcomics that are suppose to be about the author and/or their lives because those comics were designed to be about the author instead of throwing them in midway.those are called memoirs, not self-inserts
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Solekii - 05-09-2016
(05-09-2016, 03:19 AM)a52 Wrote: »I think author inserts (ala homestuck) are generally more acceptable than self-inserts, if that makes sense. But still only when the story is already kind of silly and meta.
I agree. But most 'author' inserts tend to be an exaggerated version of the creator, or even a different character entirely (or an assumption of who the author is). Good ones are more like pen-handles ala 'Lemony Snicket' or something. Those can be pretty fun.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Schazer - 05-09-2016
If you combine all of my characters you get 2.5 me's and assorted anime fragments
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Schazer - 05-09-2016
I'm a fusion dance between an anime, a shitpost, and a small but biologically diverse patch of temperate forest
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - tronn - 05-09-2016
I think there's two levels to author self inserts.
On one level all authors channel parts of themselves into the characters they write, and that's entirely natural and a-okay thing to do. Even then what should be avoided is the author using a character as a soapbox for their ideas - that gets old real quick.
On the other level is the author inserting themselves as a character in the story they're writing, and that can be really offputting unless the story is explicitly autobiographical, because at that point the person is basically writing fan-fiction about themselves.
Now, even that can be made to work but it requires caution. What I did in my previous forum adventure was to have my forum avatar directly address the audience occasionally, but I kept that within the metafiction - that is, I wrote another level of fiction to the story, where the characters were actors playing roles, and my forum persona was the director of the show (and the actual forum adventure was that show). Basically a fictional behind the scenes view! Even then I ended up dropping that, because some readers started giving suggestions to me the author instead of the characters in the story.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-09-2016
(05-09-2016, 11:18 AM)tronn Wrote: »Even then what should be avoided is the author using a character as a soapbox for their ideas - that gets old real quick.
I don't exactly remember how the phrase goes, but it's something like "All cartoons are political and all writing is didactic." I think the problem isn't spreading ideas, but bad writing.
You know the story of the Dude of Wisdom humiliating a Loud and Irrational Straw Guy for not being like the Dude of Wisdom? It's a classic, almost as old as the Hero's Journey. It's also bad writing because it's just as entertaining no matter what the Dude of Wisdom's viewpoint is.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Arashi500 - 05-11-2016
So fellow adventure-readers, when presented with the choice of reading it as posted on a forum or on a mirror, which are you more inclined to read on and does the presence or lack of a mirror affect your willingness to read an adventure in the first place?
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Electrum - 05-11-2016
It honestly depends, I can be very fickle with my adventure reading. Sometimes the way the text is formatted on a forum turns me off from reading so if the option of reading it on a mirror is available I do it. Most of my mirror reading is done to avoid posts which stretch out the updates, like I wouldn't want to scroll through 5 fucking pages just to get to the next update because the readers got crazy in the absence of the OP/Author. That is unless the updates and choices that the readers impart on the story are more crucial to read. Good adventures foster that. Like Superego, THG, Fortuna and all that jazz (though I must confess I read a good chunk of Superego on its mirror because I got irritated somehow by reading it on the old forums). With Fortuna for example everyone speculated and came up with all these different alien races and shit and I really liked to observe that brainstorming. THG sort of occupies the same boat as Superego for me.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Dragon Fogel - 05-11-2016
There's also adventures like Supersoldier and Art of Domination that have a focus on strategy. In cases like that, the reader comments are very important to understanding the adventure, because that's where the strategic discussion takes place.
If you just read the updates for either of those adventures, you're missing a lot of what's going on. There are entire debates on strategic approaches and they have a pretty significant impact on what ends up happening.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Gimeurcookie - 05-11-2016
I think Bobert captures my thoughts pretty much exactly. Adventures like Art of Domination which have VERY in depth strategy posts pretty much require reading in to it. It's at least half the fun of the comic! But for many adventures I enjoy a mirror a lot more. I'm so easily distracted sometimes that if we're in a cooling period in the comic (where little to no action is going on) sometimes I'll get flat out distracted by something in someone's sig and trail off to another webpage after setting a bookmark.
Also yeah time to time if there's a lot of posts between updates someone can miss the author's post and have to backtrack in confusion.
A mirror semi affects my willingness to read an adventure. A good opening will make me read the adventure no matter what format but a mirror makes me read a few more pages if the opening to the adventure didn't draw me in automatically. Basically at least for me, a mirror allows the author a little more time to bring out their hook.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Solekii - 05-11-2016
I generally prefer to read the mirror to catch up on long-running adventures that there's no way I'd be able to trek through page after page without getting distracted. But I really like when reader input is important, so adventures that incorporate that I might be more inclined to read through forum-style. I just with there was a way to read text adventures more fluidly.
New adventures that I've stuck with since the start I'm probably just going to catch on the forum, though.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-11-2016
Mirrors are ok but making mirrors is a pain
In general i'd rather read adventures that I've been reading since the beginning, resorting to reading the mirror if peer pressure leaves me no choice.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Justice Watch - 05-11-2016
I tend to prefer to read adventures that are newer, and thus when I click on a thread and see that it does have a mirror, I am immediately deterred. Sinking several afternoons into reading a whole thing doesn't really appeal to me. And that's unfortunate, since I know it's a good thing for both the author and the reader to do! Take that how you will I guess.
That said, reading though an adventure on a mirror is much better than sifting through suggestions on the forums.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OTTO - 05-11-2016
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RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-11-2016
> Scream into the advertising abyss and hope for the best
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Solekii - 05-11-2016
You could advertise it as a 'new mirror' for your adventure, that makes it look like it isn't quite as daunting to start reading.
That being said the first time I read homestuck I finished it in two weeks of persistent reading. So I guess if people like it, they'll read it regardless (I'm gonna get through Fortuna one of these days. Dang school getting in the way of my reading)
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - btp - 05-11-2016
The mirror issue is a critical one, because as a genera, forum adventures are limited.
If you're a reader and you plan to invest several hours in a webcomic or other story, which would you choose: A carefully thought out and edited work, or a work slapped together with reader suggestions on an update by update schedule?
You'd be foolish not to choose the former! (I think this is a point worth discussing, so I'll leave it undefended here). Often, the primary motive for reading an adventure's backlog is to catch up so you can suggest for where it is now. But if that's your goal, then you're not trying to read a story, you're trying to play a game.
Now forum adventures, or interactive webcomics, whatever you want to call them, blur the line between story and game pretty well, but in all honesty, the rules of the game directly inhibit the telling of the story.
There is a larger post, somewhere here, about what the real advantages and disadvantages of forum adventures actually are. It's a discussion that involves questions like "is this a sustainable medium?" "can a forum adventure be financially viable?" "Can adventures draw in and handle larger audiences?"
EagleTime is a tiny space on the web, but the idea of the medium it is ostensibly built around is much larger, and one that, I think, should be explored and promoted beyond what a forum can offer.
Returning to ideas about mirrors, I recently discovered Adobe Slate, which although far form perfect, I think has real potential to make reading a mirror an engaging, unique process, separate from the adventure-suggesting portion.
If you glance through that, can anyone think of other resources that could expand the idea of what experiencing a mirror should be like? (Perezi comes to mind, but other than that I don't have many examples to go off.)
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - a52 - 05-11-2016
I personally believe that both the mirror and the actual forum adventure should be as poorly maintained, confusing, badly designed, and unfriendly as possible. Entirely different adventures, if you're up for it. I think I prefer the mirror in this case, since I can make the entire background a garish yellow, whereas on the forum I have to make do with just highlighting text.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-12-2016
(05-11-2016, 09:57 PM)btp Wrote: »If you're a reader and you plan to invest several hours in a webcomic
are forum adventures with images and webcomics the same thing, though? are you sure that the contributions of one person, the main artist, are enough to tell the story? some adventure mirrors have quotes from the thread showing the commands, making the mirror, in practice, an abridged version of the adventure in the forum.
(05-11-2016, 09:57 PM)btp Wrote: »A carefully thought out and edited work, or a work slapped together with reader suggestions on an update by update schedule?but a forum adventure is not carefully thought out. pretending it is such as fraud.
i don't believe i've ever seen a forum adventure mirror update significantly different from the forum adventure update (The closest thing I can think of is Alabaster, that SGRUBventure, changing a page made over a year ago at the time to match Homestuck canon) or a mirror that omits reader suggestions entirely.
though i've also never read the webcomic version of Kill Six Billion Demons so maybe i'd have a better perspective if i did.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Solekii - 05-12-2016
The way I see it, forum adventures are a collaborative process. I actually enjoy them more than webcomics sometimes because the user input is there. Forum adventures aren't so much about the story as they are about the journey. The world they take place in and the characters involved become rapidly more important than the story itself. They have a lot of potential, I think most people just aren't aware they exist. What? A comic I can suggest stuff to? Egads!
It brings the author so much closer to the audience because they're relying on them to push the ideas forward. And sure, a lot of bullshit happens, but that's the fun of it. It really tests an author's ability to be loose with their ideas (and to remember their cannon) and to not focus so much on the plot as they do on the development of the characters (or not, I mean you could always just ignore arcs and have that be fun too). Forum adventures are loose enough that they allow for the suspension of disbelief to be pushed a bit further, since the audience is meant to take the rules, apply them, and suggest based on what they know.
What's better than one mind? How about a whole bunch of minds all working together to push something forward and see where it goes. Like btp said, it's a game. But it's a game where even the creator doesn't know everything and I kind of like that form of spontaneity, it's like a storyboard driven TV show, or improv acting. The fun is in not knowing what comes next. You have a loose outline, then you hit play.
Or you can use them just to dick around and have some fun. Like I said, it's a loose genre, but with lots of potential.
And (bringing this back around town now) the mirror helps people who want to catch up on a popular adventure actually get to the point where they can suggest stuff too, or if they prefer to stay on the sidelines and watch it happen from a safe spot.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - Colby - 05-12-2016
(05-12-2016, 01:54 AM)Solekii Wrote: »The way I see it, forum adventures are a collaborative process. I actually enjoy them more than webcomics sometimes because the user input is there. Forum adventures aren't so much about the story as they are about the journey. The world they take place in and the characters involved become rapidly more important than the story itself. They have a lot of potential, I think most people just aren't aware they exist. What? A comic I can suggest stuff to? Egads!
It brings the author so much closer to the audience because they're relying on them to push the ideas forward. And sure, a lot of bullshit happens, but that's the fun of it. It really tests an author's ability to be loose with their ideas (and to remember their cannon) and to not focus so much on the plot as they do on the development of the characters (or not, I mean you could always just ignore arcs and have that be fun too). Forum adventures are loose enough that they allow for the suspension of disbelief to be pushed a bit further, since the audience is meant to take the rules, apply them, and suggest based on what they know.
What's better than one mind? How about a whole bunch of minds all working together to push something forward and see where it goes. Like btp said, it's a game. But it's a game where even the creator doesn't know everything and I kind of like that form of spontaneity, it's like a storyboard driven TV show, or improv acting. The fun is in not knowing what comes next. You have a loose outline, then you hit play.
Or you can use them just to dick around and have some fun. Like I said, it's a loose genre, but with lots of potential.
And (bringing this back around town now) the mirror helps people who want to catch up on a popular adventure actually get to the point where they can suggest stuff too, or if they prefer to stay on the sidelines and watch it happen from a safe spot.
I think this is really well put. I dont have anything to add, but it made me reconsider a little of how I thought about adventures.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - SleepingOrange - 05-12-2016
(05-12-2016, 01:22 AM)OrangeAipom Wrote: »(05-11-2016, 09:57 PM)btp Wrote: »A carefully thought out and edited work, or a work slapped together with reader suggestions on an update by update schedule?but a forum adventure is not carefully thought out. pretending it is such as fraud.
That's a little combative and, I think, pretty inaccurate. There were and are lots of works that are hugely preplanned, sometimes to the point that readers get frustrated at the "railroading". It's not the fashion here on ET, but I have my doubts there aren't any currently running (or even since-abandoned) works that had a lot of thought and editing put into them. I mean, Fortuna still functionally acts as a forum adventure, but there's a lot of concept artwork, worldbuilding (or worldbuilding synthesis), overarching plot, and design and polish that go on behind the scenes, even though it's still (I think? I haven't been part of the Fortuna community in many an age) partially-to-largely extemporaneously created.
As for the overall question of forum versus mirror, my own preference is for the forum. It's not hard except in the most egregious outliers to find the actual updates if I don't feel like reading feedback and suggestions, but the option to read them exists if I do. Also, I don't like having to go to different sites to read them, because I am a lazy curmudgeon.
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-12-2016
worldbuilding and railroading aren't even related topics
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - SleepingOrange - 05-12-2016
I'd say those things are all under the heading of "carefully thought out" which is specifically what you said
What concepts are related to your point then?
RE: Critique and Advice; the treadmill of adventuring. - OrangeAipom - 05-12-2016
i don't know... sorry. i guess you're right and i'm jsut kinda upset that other people can do things on their own